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Old 19th January 2017, 09:45 PM   #1
dana_w
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Default 18th Miquelet Lock Shotgun, Catalonian Maker Info Needed

I am photographing this Spanish Musket for WeaponsCollector.com today. The makers mark on the barrel appears to be that of Joan (Juan) Prat. I've found this unattributed information on-line.

Joan (Juan) Prat, a Basque gunsmith, was active circa 1780 in Ripoll, in Gerona province in the eastern Spanish Pyrenees, 20 miles south of the French border.

The Prat family is mentioned in Dr. James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms on page 274:

Prats, M. , A Ripoll lockmaker active during the final quarter of the seventeenth century. His mark together with the date 1686 appears on the battery of a three-barrelled gun in the Museo Arqueolégico Nacional, Madrid (6417). The family of Prats or Prat manufactured locks and barrels in Ripoll until the middle of the eighteenth century.

Several Prats are listed in Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros dias (Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present day) by J. F. Rafols, (1951), see attached images. I don’t speak Spanish and have yet to pass these listing by Google Translate.

I'd appreciate any additional information or clarification on Joan Prat and the Prat family.
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Old 19th January 2017, 11:54 PM   #2
Fernando K
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Hello

This is not a musket, but a shotgun. The barrel channel stretches beyond the handle and the lock is the so-called "all three fashions".

The Ripoll PARAT lineage includes 22 gunsmiths

Ramiro Larrañaga, in "Historical Synthesis of the Basque Armory", page 266, brings the following news

PRAT Line of arms of Ri`poll. 17th and 18th centuries. There are more than 22 teachers of this surname

That's it

Affectionately. Fernando K

PS I did not see the inscription on the plate of the lock
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Old 20th January 2017, 12:50 AM   #3
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Thanks for the info on the PARAT lineage Fernando K. Would you translate the Joan (Juan) Prat entries from the Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna for me?

I have not found any inscription on the lock yet. I may remove it to check the inside soon.

I am not clear on why you think this long gun was made exclusively for shot and not ball. Are you trying to say it is because the stock doesn't extend the length of the barrel?

Last edited by dana_w : 20th January 2017 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:26 AM   #4
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Hello dana

Yes, exactly. The stock does not extend to the mouth, the drumstick gets into where the stock ends and because it is a quality weapon. The hunting bayonet in iodine case, gets into the barrel

You will be translating the tickets for IOAN PRAT, but tomorrow

Greetings. Fernando K
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello dana

Yes, exactly. The stock does not extend to the mouth, the drumstick gets into where the stock ends and because it is a quality weapon. The hunting bayonet in iodine case, gets into the barrel

You will be translating the tickets for IOAN PRAT, but tomorrow

Greetings. Fernando K


Interesting. That is not a distinction I remember reading about. I've seen many smooth bore half stock long guns being called Muskets. The bore on this weapon is around .75" (19.05 mm). It closely resembles the diameter on a Brown Bess.
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Old 20th January 2017, 11:22 AM   #6
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PRATS, Joan. "Master of works" (mason) of the second half of the 15th century. I worked with Bartollome Mas in the church of Pino de Barcelona

PRATS, Joan. Maestro plateero barcelones, from the 15th century - I finish his "pasantia" in 1579, presenting a ring. In his entrance in the books of the guild it is made record that he has to pass new examinations in 1593 and 1616

PRATS "Master stocmaker" of the 15th century, born in Barcelona. It is known to him City councilman for the consular year of 1644 - 1665

PRATS, Joan "Master of works" (mason) of the 16th century .. Together with Jose Rovira and helped by his son Jose, I built in 1670 the base of the high altar in the parish of Esparraguerra.
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Old 20th January 2017, 11:59 AM   #7
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Francisco de GOYA
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Old 20th January 2017, 12:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
Interesting. That is not a distinction I remember reading about. I've seen many smooth bore half stock long guns being called Muskets ...

Distinction between either, in 'non technical' descriptions, doesn't often take place; yet such is a commonly accepted concept. Half stocked examples are usually hunting 'escopetas'; he term musket being more of a generic name, not so compromised with typology. Also surprising that, a gun of this quality would not have the lock maker name or mark well visible, once these are 'never' the same as cannon masters.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:05 PM   #9
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So ...

.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Distinction between either, in 'non technical' descriptions, doesn't often take place; yet such is a commonly accepted concept. Half stocked examples are usually hunting 'escopetas'; he term musket being more of a generic name, not so compromised with typology. Also surprising that, a gun of this quality would not have the lock maker name or mark well visible, once these are 'never' the same as cannon masters.


Thanks for the additional clarification fernando. I'll keep that in mind and mention this " commonly accepted concept" when I write the description.

Thanks so much for the scan of the marks too.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:19 PM   #11
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It is a little hard to tell but the weapons in Francisco de GOYA's, Dogs on leash, look like they could be full stock. Here is a larger and clearer photo.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:28 PM   #12
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Hello dana

Yes, exactly. Also in the painting of GOYA, Carlos ii, hunter, has a shotgun with the complete stock, and at his waist you can see the hunting bayonet.

In the best picture of dogs hunting, you can also see the hunting bayonet.

Fernando k
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello dana

Yes, exactly. Also in the painting of GOYA, Carlos ii, hunter, has a shotgun with the complete stock, and at his waist you can see the hunting bayonet.

In the best picture of dogs hunting, you can also see the hunting bayonet.

Fernando k


Interesting, I didn't realize plug bayonets were used for hunting. Thanks for pointing me to the image.
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:50 PM   #14
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They are full stocked indeed.
Maybe this hunter fancied hunting with, not one but, a pair of muskets ... and two dogs leashed to each other with such short steel chain. All very unusual, don't you agree ?
Isn't this what we call over here artistic freedom ?
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
Interesting, I didn't realize plug bayonets were used for hunting. Thanks for pointing me to the image.

That's why we call them hunting bayonets (baioneta de caça over here and cuchillo de caza in Spain), as this was the original idea. You shoot a beast that often strikes back if is only hurt and you don't have time to reload your gun. The solution is plug the hunting bayonet and sustain its charge.
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Old 20th January 2017, 02:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
...I'll keep that in mind and mention this " commonly accepted concept" when I write the description...

Another approach is, you may see hunting escopetas with full stock, but you never see military muskets with half stock .
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Old 20th January 2017, 02:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Another approach is, you may see hunting escopetas with full stock, but you never see military muskets with half stock .



Never? Are you sure about that fernando?
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Old 20th January 2017, 03:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
Never? Are you sure about that fernando?

Well, i am looking at dozens of military examples shown by Barceló Rubi and Calvó Pascual and only three late short 'tercerolas' are half stocked. All carbines, musketoons and fusils are fully stocked.
You may conclude by yourself .
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Old 20th January 2017, 03:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Well, i am looking at dozens of military examples shown by Barceló Rubi and Calvó Pascual and only three late short 'tercerolas' are half stocked. All carbines, musketoons and fusils are fully stocked.
You may conclude by yourself .


I've learned not to use the term "never"
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Old 20th January 2017, 04:10 PM   #20
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A 'modern' tercerola is not a musket ... but you may change "never" to "rarely", though .
I am no scholar Dana; i allow myself 'digestive' assumptions as figures of speech, depending on the context ... and i have also learnt a few thing during my 69 years .
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Old 20th January 2017, 04:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
A 'modern' tercerola is not a musket ... but you may change "never" to "rarely", though .
I am no scholar Dana; i allow myself 'digestive' assumptions as figures of speech, depending on the context ... and i have also learnt a few thing during my 69 years .


I bow to your advanced age and deeply appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
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Old 20th January 2017, 04:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
I bow to your advanced age and deeply appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced ... and neither is my knowledge .. at all .
Obviously we are simplifying things when differentiating shoulder guns typology only by their stock length. Deoration has a lot to do with it, as Fernando K well reminded. While military weapons have/had a more austere look, is on hunting guns that usually smiths have a go with their artistry, either on barrels as also on locks; don't you agree ?
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Old 20th January 2017, 04:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced ... and neither is my knowledge .. at all .
Obviously we are simplifying things when differentiating shoulder guns typology only by their stock length. Deoration has a lot to do with it, as Fernando K well reminded. While military weapons have/had a more austere look, is on hunting guns that usually smiths have a go with their artistry, either in barrels and locks; don't you agree ?


Yes, I agree! And Yes, I am KIDDING you about you mentioning your age.
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Old 20th January 2017, 06:07 PM   #24
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Old 20th January 2017, 06:13 PM   #25
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Now if you don't mind, this is definitely a topic for the European forum. I don't know how i didn't notice this before but, we are still in time to move it to that section ... and expect further comments on this fine gun.
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Old 20th January 2017, 06:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Now if you don't mind, this is definitely a topic for the European forum. I don't know how i didn't notice this before but, we are still in time to move it to that section ... and expect further comments on this fine gun.



A good point. Sorry about posting in the wrong forum.
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Old 20th January 2017, 07:04 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=fernando]Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced ...


Mmmmm!!!!
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Old 20th January 2017, 07:10 PM   #28
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So what, Norman; are you envious of my youth ? .
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Old 20th January 2017, 07:26 PM   #29
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I've been trying to convince my wife that my 63 years, please note 63 is less than 69, would look better if I partook of your famous Portuguese tipple after dinner after all I have held you up as an example of the youth giving properties of Port for years.
Kind Regards,
Norman


OOPS She has just rumbled that Fernando and Ronaldo are two different people

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Old 21st January 2017, 04:27 AM   #30
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I really enjoy Peninsular Miquelets and want to learn as much as I can about them, what is the meaning of "all three fashions" applied to the lock in this case?
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