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Old 8th December 2016, 05:48 PM   #31
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Default Copies Sold

Am curious how many copies have sold, does anyone have a copy numbered higher than 50? Mine is #17. If you don't already have your own personal copy you may want to get one soon.

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Old 8th December 2016, 06:12 PM   #32
Jens Nordlunde
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Rand, the sale is going fine, and they have sold far more than fifty copies. But as I am not a Robert Elgood, and as well known as he is, I think it is all right.
I am glad to say, that The MET, V&A, Royal Armouries, The David Collection in Copenhagen (who has the biggest Islamic collection in Europe), and probably the Danish National museum now all have a copy. So it has been spread from Canada to the Middle East and India.
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Old 9th December 2016, 05:18 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
Am curious how many copies have sold, does anyone have a copy numbered higher than 50? Mine is #17. If you don't already have your own personal copy you may want to get one soon.

rand
Rand,

I received mine last month (an early Xmas present from my wife ) and it is number 52.

Ian.
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Old 9th December 2016, 03:23 PM   #34
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Jens,

Your knowledge of Islamic arms is at a world class level and you can talk fluently with a depth of knowledge with anyone in the world and they would know that instantly. I give you the learned and earned title of Babur.

Jens Norlunde BBR

Has a nice ring to it.


Ian,

Since you got a gift from your wife of Jens book, I am rethinking the value of marriage in a very positive light.
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Old 9th December 2016, 04:20 PM   #35
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Hello Rand :-) - and thank you for the title :-).
I have tried as much as I could, although I have not studied/researched all the years I have collected, there have been times when I had to stop due to too much work.
I am really glad so many like the book, but on the other hand, I am afraid I will have to disappoint you. As I am not the one knowing all, I do have holes - of which I am not proud - but they are there.
To day I was reading some texts, which a museums curator had written about Indian weapons, and when reading the text, I thought, he cant mean that - impossible. But at the time, I had forgotten, that I concentrate on a relatively small area (far big enough for me), but he will have to have some knowledge over a much bigger area - so it is hardly fair to compair, when you take into consideration all the years I have used on my 'small' area.
None the less, I am really glad you like the book, and for your comments - thank you very much.

Hello Ian, yes now and again it pays to have a wife :-), especially when it comes to pre-Christmas gifts :-) - I do apperciate that she is looking so well after you :-).
I know you have many interests, and knowledge of weapons from many different areas, but I hope that you will like the book all the same.

Babur
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Old 9th December 2016, 04:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rand
Ian,

Since you got a gift from your wife of Jens book, I am rethinking the value of marriage in a very positive light.
Rand, there was an element of "programming" prior to her purchase of the book, but she is long suffering and indulges me in my collecting of sharp and pointy things. As long as my collecting does not invade her space, she is happy to let me doodle around with my hobby.

Ian.
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Old 13th December 2016, 05:20 PM   #37
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Default many thanks Mr. Nordlunde !

very beautiful book, a lot of work,i m very grateful, i informed some of my friends, 4 exemplars are now in switzerland ! Congratulate !!! Iskender

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Old 13th December 2016, 08:45 PM   #38
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Iskender,
Thank you very much for your post, I tried to send you a PM, but unfortunately without any luck.
Jens
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Old 7th January 2017, 09:37 PM   #39
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I have had a PM mail from someone, I dont know if he wants me to publish his name, but he has told me that the text on the sword shown on page 341 in the catalogue is wrong.
It should read 'XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX'. Which means 'The City of Belluno'. Belluno is in south Tirol, in the Dolomits in north Italy. At the time this part of Italy was under the control of Venice.
The town was famed for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara and Pietro Formicano, and to this comes that they in the Domomits have/had a lot of iron mines.

I am sorry for the error, but I thought my reading of the worn stamp was right - till I was corrected.
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Old 20th December 2017, 08:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
One sword was missing in my catalogue, but thanks to the helf of Lee you can find it here http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/No%2051.pdf
Thank you Lee for your help.
Jens


Jens where did you get the notion that those brass filled holes have talismanic significance ?

This is obviously a reused Patissa blade and those holes would house rivets to hold the blade and hilt together as in the following example:
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:20 PM   #41
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The sword shown is not a pattisa blade, or it would have been changed quite a lot.
It is generally accepted that these brass/gold filled holes are of talismanic significance.
One other thing, which I can mention is, that these filled 'holes' are far bigger than the holes for rivets.
You may have a theory about these holes, but I stick to what I have written.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 12:38 AM   #42
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Thanks for the response Jens.

Could you kindly provide a reference that supports your statement. I have several blades with similar brass or silver filled holes and would be interested in learning more about an alternative view on why they exist.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 04:21 PM   #43
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I am sorry but I dont have the time to find quotes on this subject. So I am afraid you will have to find them yourself, which should not be too difficult.
Have a nice Christmas.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 08:58 AM   #44
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Even if you had the time Jens I very much doubt that you would have been able to find any reference to support your statement - for the simple reason that none exist.

Drilled holes in Indian blades are not uncommon. When present in groups of three arranged in triangles they might represent a trademark of a manufacturing principality like Sirohi or we can speculate that they might be symbolic representation of the Indian Trinity (Trimurti) in the shape of Brahma (Creator),
Vishnu (Preserver), and Shiva (Destroyer).

When drilled holes are present along the midline of the blade as in your example they are merely the sign of a reused blade. The holes being used to rivet the brace of the original hilt and later filled with metal for aesthetic reasons when a new hilt and a different brace were added.

I wish you a Merry Christmas as well !
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Old 23rd December 2017, 01:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Likhari
we can speculate that they might be symbolic representation of the Indian Trinity (Trimurti) in the shape of Brahma (Creator),
Vishnu (Preserver), and Shiva (Destroyer)

Let me step into such an interesting discussion. I have a question. Are there some images of Trimurti in the form of three circles somewhere in the Indian art tradition? I have never met them yet
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Old 23rd December 2017, 04:45 PM   #46
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I too have been watching this discussion with interest.

Likhari, the example you show in post #42 above would seem to not support your argument. What supporting structure would account for those holes? The elaborate decorative work above the holes would argue that no supporting structure existed, at least none that would obscure the fine chiseling and gold work. Also, they are not simple holes that have been filled with brass, but rather they look like stars with small radiating lines--they seem decorative in nature to my eyes, which would support Jens comment that these have some significance and are perhaps talismanic.

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Old 23rd December 2017, 05:16 PM   #47
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There are a lot of patissa-khanda blades with holes and a little bit of sabre-tulwar blades. Why do you think?
It is need to see in what place of blade these holes located. In the most part it is a place of rivet I think.
Talismanic?
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Old 23rd December 2017, 09:36 PM   #48
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Talismanic
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Old 23rd December 2017, 11:47 PM   #49
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Thank you for your interest Mercenary !

I think the location and the form of the holes is significant to their purpose. When they are present as three in the shape of a triangle they are usually off centered and could have no bracing purpose. In this case they either act as trademarks or have some aniconic symbolism.

Vedic religion encouraged iconography because they believed that God (Ishwar) is formless (Nirguna) and in order to meditate on him we humans, who can only perceive things through our senses, need something which has form (Saguna) therefore they invented deities which represented different aspects of the formless God. The original Vedic triad was Agni, Surya, and Rudra which by Puranic times has metamorphosed into the Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesha.

The iconography associated with the Trimurti was very precise but there also existed a significant aniconic representation of these deities which served the purpose (as opposed to the iconic) of acting as safeguards against reducing the divine to the level of the human. For example Shiva was represented by the Linga, Vishnu by the Saligrama, and Shakti by the Yoni. Yantras, Chakras, and Swastika would be other examples of the aniconic used in Hindu culture.

The three holes could also represent the three Guṇas (Qualities that make up a living being) - Sattva (Harmony), Rajas ( Passion) and Tamas (Chaos) - also represented by the three points of the Trishula.

They could represent the three main Nadis (Energy channels in the human body) - Ida, Pingala, and Sushumana.

They could also represent the three wheels of the chariot of the Moon - Which could have been of some importance to Chandravanshi Rajputs who claimed descent from the moon.

All this is of course pure speculation on my part. I am just throwing out some of the possibilities. Your guess is as good as mine.

Ian the points you raise are valid. The blade in #42 is currently in my possession.
I believe that the current brace with the fancy koftgari is the newest edition (late 19th century) of a number of braces that this old blade has had. The previous braces ran along the middle of the blade and were riveted through the metal filled holes. I agree with you that the shape of the holes is odd but that could have just been because of the shape of the chisel used to make them. The odd positioning of one of the holes could just be because of a different sized brace that was used in the past. I do not believe that they have any aniconic significance on this blade but I could always be wrong.
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Old 24th December 2017, 04:57 AM   #50
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So we don't have accurate information about the significance of the three holes except for the trade mark or just simple decoration (if only the owners of these swords was all educated philosophers or theologians) and don't have information about any meanings of other holes in the case of Indian weapons, unlike of Chinese "seven stars" (I attached the photo above)?
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Old 24th December 2017, 10:47 PM   #51
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Under normal circumstances I would agree that a single medial hole, filled or not, in the case of Jens’ sword and the one in #42 is just a remainder of the old brace. I do have a saber with an old European blade and Indo- Muslim ( Tulwar) handle the ricasso of which bears a footprint of an earlier brace of a basket hilt and an unfilled hole for a rivet.


However , in both cases presented here, there is not one but several such plugged holes in tight formations. I am unaware of any old khanda or patissa swords where the brace of the basket handle required so many tightly- grouped rivets at its distal end. One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual.

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me. But the use of these holes for purely “engineering” purposes
is dubious.
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Old 25th December 2017, 01:46 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me.

This is often true in Moro/Filipino and Indonesian examples. I offer this comparison to bolster the argument from cultures who had contacts with the Indian subcontinent.
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Old 25th December 2017, 11:27 AM   #53
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Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?
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Old 25th December 2017, 09:51 PM   #54
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Very intersting discussion!
At first I was also convinced the filled holes have some talismanic or decorative purpose but... now I'm not so sure anymore. Are there any exmples of such "talismanic" fillings on Tulwar blades for example? I haven't seen any.
I believe that the hypothesis that the holes are simply from previous mountings is very logical and quite plausible.

However, in the case of the sword from #42, if the holes are from previous mounts, why are they so close to eachother as this would not serve well to the rigidity of the mounting and may even compromise the strength of the blade. And if they come from different mountings, I would expect one to adapt the mounting to the blade and use the existing holes and not drill another hole so close to an existing one.

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Old 26th December 2017, 07:14 AM   #55
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Talismanic inscriptions and decorations are very well known (blessing and protection)
In the case presented I do not believe in old rivet holes.
There is another option already mentionned above:

proof marks or factory/quality marks.

You have some brass or even gold fillings on Ottoman blades.
They are always connected to a workshop and demonstrate the skill of the smith and the quality of the blade.

Some of these marks including stamps became talismanic with time.
I think at the gurda marks for example.

Happy new year
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Old 27th December 2017, 09:17 PM   #56
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I do believe that Kubur is right.
If you want to try to undertand some of it, you will have to look for the the influence of other countries.
Sorry but I will have to drop out once more.
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Old 28th December 2017, 05:49 PM   #57
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"One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual."

And from where my dear Dr. Barkan did you get the idea that it was unusual for an Indian blade to have multiple hilts during its lifetime ?

High quality blades like the one shown in #42 or the one shown by Jens were considered prized heirlooms in India. Hilts on Indian swords were changed at the slightest whim. Often times a Maharaja would come out with a slight variation of a traditional hilt and all his courtiers were required to use the same kind of hilt on their swords in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the Maharaja.

I am surprised that my fellow forumites are not using Occam's Razor in this discussion and are instead trying to look for exotic reason without being able to provide any reference whatsoever !
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Old 28th December 2017, 10:14 PM   #58
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Likhari,

I think we can agree that rehilting of Indian swords was a common enough event. However, the drilling of new holes for those rehilts may not have been common. It would be easiest to reuse the old ones, which is what I think Ariel was saying.

Ian.
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Old 28th December 2017, 11:11 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Likhari,

I think we can agree that rehilting of Indian swords was a common enough event. However, the drilling of new holes for those rehilts may not have been common. It would be easiest to reuse the old ones, which is what I think Ariel was saying.

Ian.


You make an excellent point Ian but you have to remember that the style of the brace on these straight blades also changed with the hilt and a different style of brace might require some retooling on the blade.
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Old 29th December 2017, 01:28 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?



Here is an example: Indian tulwar with 2 plugs, one at each end of the blade.
One can wonder about the one close to the handle, but the one near the tip could not be used for a brace:-)
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