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Old 21st December 2016, 04:58 PM   #1
rickystl
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Default Torador Matchlock - Finished

Hello All.

I guess this is actually Part IV of the Torador Barrel Investigation Threads I posted earlier. But thought I would start a new Thread since the gun is now complete.
The Torador musket is now re-assembled and complete. It's now safe, and ready to be test fired. Can't wait to try it out.
The OAL length is 75" (191cm) with a barrel length of 55.5" (141cm). The original caliber was about .65 (17mm). It has a new steel liner in the bore and a sleeve inside the breech area. It is now a .54 (14mm) caliber smoothbore.
It has a new brass front bead sight. The clean break in the forearm wood was repaired, which doesn't even show. The original pan cover was missing. So a new one was made. I added a vent pick and chain. The bead work is just me playing around. LOL Original powder and priming flasks in working order. I will use these to load. Should be much fun.
Anyway, picture heavy here. Comments most appreciated. And thanks for looking.

Rick
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Old 21st December 2016, 05:00 PM   #2
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MORE PICS..........
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Old 21st December 2016, 05:02 PM   #3
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STILL MORE PICS......
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Old 21st December 2016, 05:03 PM   #4
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LAST ONES............
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Old 21st December 2016, 05:41 PM   #5
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VERY NICE!!! I really like the pic with all the accoutrements! We tend to forget what is also carried with guns............
Stu
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Old 21st December 2016, 06:08 PM   #6
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Hi Rick,
Great work as always and I'm with Stu on the bits, nicely done. There's quite a lot of Toradors in the U.K., bring backs during the Raj, most of which are in a sorry state stuffed in garages and attics but the bits are much more difficult to find so it's nice to see them together. I've not been about much lately, have you got a liner in the barrel and if you have what is it like to shoot?
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 23rd December 2016, 02:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
VERY NICE!!! I really like the pic with all the accoutrements! We tend to forget what is also carried with guns............
Stu

Hi Stu.

Thanks for the comment. I plan on using the flasks to load while test firing and set the other accoutrements on the shooting bench next to me just to add to the "atmosphere" if you get what I mean. LOL. Should be great fun.

Rick
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Old 23rd December 2016, 02:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Rick,
Great work as always and I'm with Stu on the bits, nicely done. There's quite a lot of Toradors in the U.K., bring backs during the Raj, most of which are in a sorry state stuffed in garages and attics but the bits are much more difficult to find so it's nice to see them together. I've not been about much lately, have you got a liner in the barrel and if you have what is it like to shoot?
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman.

Thanks for your comments. The barrel does in fact have a new steel liner. It's now a .54 caliber (14mm) smoothbore. I can load, shoot, and clean just like any other muzzle loader. It was just finished, so I have not fired it yet. Will probably wait till early Spring so I can have someone shoot a video.

Next Project, I'm sending off the barrel of an Albanian Tanchika long gun to have a liner installed. LOL

Rick
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:48 PM   #9
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Look forward to a range report Rick!
Like I said elsewhere, I believe this gun came from Jaipur originally, going by the metal re-enforcing and decorative style.

Looks well now. Maybe polish the scratches out on the muzzle end a bit.. :-)

R.
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Old 30th December 2016, 03:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Look forward to a range report Rick!
Like I said elsewhere, I believe this gun came from Jaipur originally, going by the metal re-enforcing and decorative style.

Looks well now. Maybe polish the scratches out on the muzzle end a bit.. :-)

R.

Hi Richard.

Thanks again for the comments. I agree with your origins assessment. Now that you mention it, yes. The muzzle end could do with a bit of oil and crocus cloth. LOL.

Rick
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Old 3rd January 2017, 06:41 AM   #11
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It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?
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Old 3rd January 2017, 11:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?


YES
I can't wait to see some videos if possible to hear the noise and to see the results on different kind of (non human) targets.

Happy new year and best wishes to all
Kubur
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Old 3rd January 2017, 12:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd.


The barrel seems to have a smooth bore so it is a musket.

I know a wonderful sarcastic statement of an American Civil War Veteran: "The safest place on a musket (smoothbore) is directly in front of it."


Roland
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Old 3rd January 2017, 01:46 PM   #14
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Ah Roland, Some say so but others know better! :-)
We shoot our EIC Type F's and find if we load and hold them right, we can keep our shots well in the black at 50 yards. (Offhand)

At our annual shoot here in Alberta, some of us tried them from a rest. In essence a high rest so we could shoot still standing.
With 125 grs of 2F and a .750" ball, we found we could keep our group in the 3 1/2 to 4" at 50 yards.
They Did kick more from a rest though!
A good friend in the UK has shot well with a musket for a long time, and has found that even with small charges of powder, (85 grs) he can shoot a score in the mid 90's and has won quite a few Golds in National and international events, three or four in the last year!
For his shooting this pal uses a patched ball, whereas we us Bill Curtis' method of a thick felt wad above and below the ball, well lubed.

Also, I've wanted to try a Torador for some time now, and have a barrel I'm working on, fine -boring it to smooth it up. What got me interested in these and trying them, are the contemporary accounts from the Indian sub-continent of matchlock Toradors out-ranging and being far more accurate than the British Service musket. ( Going by the above re. accuracy, I believe it wasn't so much the musket as the compromised loading for speed that made the musket less effective than it could have been)
So Rick!...as mine is not yet ready to fire,m we wait with baited breath for your reports!

Roland,
A good book with references to Toradors in use is "Sahib", by Richard Holmes, and of course Lord Eggerton has quotes from eye -witnesses regarding horsemen with matchlocks shooting small objects as they pass at a gallop at a range of 20-40 yards and "rarely miss".

All best,
Richard.
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Old 4th January 2017, 01:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Ah Roland, Some say so but others know better! :-)
We shoot our EIC Type F's and find if we load and hold them right, we can keep our shots well in the black at 50 yards. (Offhand)

At our annual shoot here in Alberta, some of us tried them from a rest. In essence a high rest so we could shoot still standing.
With 125 grs of 2F and a .750" ball, we found we could keep our group in the 3 1/2 to 4" at 50 yards.

All best,
Richard.



Hello Richard,

with a smoothbore barrel? I'm really impressed. I have some experiences in firing a black powder pistol but with a rifled barrel. The precision is almost the same as modern pistols. I always thought, that a smoothbore is very imprecise.

My knowledge come from military muskets and the bore of military muskets is always 2 or 3 mm bigger than the bullet because of the deposit from black powder in the barrel.

It seems, hunting muskets are much more precise.

I forgot to mention, that this is a nice and skillful restoration!

I'm also very interested to see the results and please Rick, clean the barrel after every single shot. I would not use more than 30 or 40 grain of black powder for the first shot.
The sound of a black powder gun is incredibly nice and only outclassed by a black powder canon.


Best wishes,
Roland
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Old 4th January 2017, 03:23 PM   #16
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Roland,
Yes, such results are possible with the smooth-bore. Note these loadings are with a closer fitting ball then was standard, where a paper cartridge was used, but useful shooting can still be done with the latter.
I too like the 'boom' of black!

Best wishes,
Richard.
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Old 7th January 2017, 05:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?

Hi Philip.

What I found interesting is due to the design and length of the butt stock, you can actually get a sight picture with the butt against the shoulder or cupped under the armpit. With the liner there is a bit more weight added. I will probably start at the 25-yard bench to see where it shoots, and work my way up from there.

Rick
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Old 7th January 2017, 05:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
The barrel seems to have a smooth bore so it is a musket.

I know a wonderful sarcastic statement of an American Civil War Veteran: "The safest place on a musket (smoothbore) is directly in front of it."


Roland

Hi Roland.

LOL!!!! That's a good one. Yes, it's a smoothbore. I have never seen any Torador that was not.

With the barrel liner I've dramatically changed the bore configuration from it's original design. So I'm guessing it will shoot similar to other smoothbore muskets now. It would have been very interesting to know how the original bore design would shoot. But I was not willing to risk it. LOL

Rick
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Old 7th January 2017, 06:00 PM   #19
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Hi Roland.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think it turned out well. Actually, I'll start with about 60 grains of FFG for 25-yards, and work my way up from there. I'll try both patched ball and unpatched with over and under wads as Richard mentions and see what works best. That would be a typical starting load for a .54 smoothbore. The stell liner will handle much more than that.

Hi Richard. Yes, a video would almost be required shooting this one for the first time. LOL Glad to hear your barrel is coming along. Something you might find interesting: The barrelsmith mentioned that the original forge-welded breech plug was done in such a manner (at least on my barrel) that it was virtually one piece and would have safely with stood the normal pressure of the black powder. JFYI

Rick
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:14 PM   #20
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Thanks for the info via your gunsmith friend re, the "integral' breechplug, Rick. Good to know as mine is staying in place. :-)

I just got half a matchlock shipped up here, (!) Yes, it is coming in 2 separate packages. It's that one from Jaipur with the wee birds on the wrist and badly broken stock. I am in high hopes the barrel is good, when it arrives!
Look forward to seeing your 'footage' when you fire this one. :-)

R.
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Old 13th January 2017, 12:50 PM   #21
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Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.
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Old 13th January 2017, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.

Hi Richard

WOW !!! All those barrels delivered at once! Merry be-lated Christmas. LOL.
Can't believe it. The one Torador barrel turns out to be cylinder bore it's full length ? Super !!! Hard to believe. I think it's trying to tell you it wants to shoot again. LOL Sounds like it just needs a burnishing and it will be ready to go. Very cool.
Do you think the stock can be restored ? Once you get started on the project please start a new Thread and keep us posted of your progress. Should be fun.
Also, post the other barrels if you want. We see very few Persian made barrels.

Rick
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Old 14th January 2017, 01:21 AM   #23
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I will do as you request Rick, re. another thread when I get at the broken stock.
Yes, it can be mended, because I've decided it Has to be mended,...but as yet I have to figure out how best, exactly. :-)

Persian barrels had lived in Oman I believe, by the part stocks that came with them. Still, I believe they Are Persian. One is near identical to an example in Tipu Sultan's arsenal.....which maybe gives me legit reason to stock one up that way! lol...
Odd thing is, it says that his barrel in Indian, re-used!
"The Firearms of Tipu Sultan, Page 128 & 9.
I don't have a copy of the book, but a pal sent me a file showing it, but can't seem to copy it.
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