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Old 27th August 2016, 07:32 AM   #151
estcrh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Well, can I call i this one a "pseudoshashka"?:-)
I think this one qualifies.
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Old 27th August 2016, 07:17 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas
Hello Kamachate,
Your posts have been very interesting and informative. Searching in Loewe’s Dictionary of the Circassian Language (pub. 1854), I could find the following words for sword/sabre. Do you think you could comment on them?
Thanks,
Andreas


Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best
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Old 27th August 2016, 07:42 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamachate
Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

Kamachate, you just explained why westerners decided on a certain name for a weapon even when there were other regional names, they just picked one that they were told and that they could pronounce and stuck with it. Now we scratch our heads trying to discover just why they used a certain name instead of another when there may be no rational explanation.
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Old 27th August 2016, 09:24 PM   #154
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Then, here is a pseudo shashka from me
The hilt is goat's horn. The iron expand of the blade goes until the end of the hilt, nearly have the shape of it. The places of the rivets can give a clue. The "ears" of the hilt are not as usual. The fuller is strange, and one can note the strange curve where the fuller begins. The blade narrows after the fuller, and slightly expands after it, as if there is a kind of "yalman". I have never seen any parallels of this one
Someone told me that this was "one of the earliest examples of shashkas", but I did not buy it (if only it was )
Best.
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Last edited by kamachate : 27th August 2016 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 28th August 2016, 03:40 AM   #155
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I think you were right not buying it. Nothing "early"or "archaic", just rudimentary workmanship of a not very talented cutler , made for a very poor customer.
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Old 28th August 2016, 04:48 AM   #156
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kamachate:

Thank you for the lesson in the Circassian language. Much appreciated and very interesting contribution to this discussion. It just goes to show how complicated and ultimately frustrating the "name game" can be for those of us who are outside the culture.

Ian

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamachate
Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best
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Old 28th August 2016, 08:18 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamachate
Dear Andreas, I know the dictionary. Although it is a good attempt for its era, it is rather an insufficient source for Circassian language (at least, today). Most words were just "found" during face to face conversations, and as noted in the preface, the common language between the researcher and the Circassians was "Turkish" (during that time, most Circassian translators were using Crimean Tatar dialect, rather than Turkish). The method of the researcher was to imitate or to show an object, then to ask what it is. That's why, there are many words answered or "understood" wrong.
These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words .

About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka
seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case.
The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka"
The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka".
However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts"
Best

Thank you very much for your answer.
Regards,
Andreas
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Old 28th August 2016, 01:26 PM   #158
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Kamachate,
Thank you very much for yout lesson.
It is very funny and very sobering.
Unquestionably, that's how it went all over the world when curious Westerners compiled books on exotic arms using private translator-mediated conversations with the locals.

Hundreds of years later their readers passionately clash in pseudo-academic pseudo- linguistic battles : saif or nimcha? Kard or karud? Tulwar, pulwar, pulouar or just shamshir? We were so happy when the "oldest" name for the Khyber knife was found: Selaawa. Now I am wondering what that old toothless Afghani had in mind:-)
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Old 28th August 2016, 02:22 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamachate
Then, here is a pseudo shashka from me
The hilt is goat's horn. The iron expand of the blade goes until the end of the hilt, nearly have the shape of it. The places of the rivets can give a clue. The "ears" of the hilt are not as usual. The fuller is strange, and one can note the strange curve where the fuller begins. The blade narrows after the fuller, and slightly expands after it, as if there is a kind of "yalman". I have never seen any parallels of this one
Someone told me that this was "one of the earliest examples of shashkas", but I did not buy it (if only it was )
Best.


Very crude and basic, this was probably a very easy sword to make and it did the job, here is another crude example....both Afghan???
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Last edited by estcrh : 28th August 2016 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 29th August 2016, 03:21 AM   #160
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Both Caucasian, IMHO.
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Old 29th August 2016, 05:11 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Very crude and basic, this was probably a very easy sword to make and it did the job, here is another crude example....both Afghan???


Compared to the one I shared, yours is a piece of art
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Old 29th August 2016, 05:24 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Both Caucasian, IMHO.

That's also what I think, but these cheap and bad examples are so small in numbers when compared to the majority... This seems interesting to me, for they "should" have been produced more than the rest (or am I wrong? I have seen many European blades, "gurda" marked ones or pieces with wonderful fullers. But these cheap and easy ones are harder to find
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Old 29th August 2016, 06:57 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Both Caucasian, IMHO.
Ok, I am still trying to figure this out, what identifies these as Caucasian and not Afghan??

Last edited by Ian : 30th August 2016 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 30th August 2016, 02:50 AM   #164
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Estrch, I believe that Ariel's comments reflect what he laid out earlier in this thread and were summarized in the table in post #71. Ian

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Ok, I am still trying to figure this out, what identifies these as Caucasian and not Afghan??
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Old 30th August 2016, 04:55 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Estrch, I believe that Ariel's comments reflect what he laid out earlier in this thread and were summarized in the table in post #71. Ian
Thanks Ian, I forgot about the bolster.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:03 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
caucasus mountains range thru Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia, and Iran.


Allow me slight correction. Instead of Russia, should be - Russian Federation. Word Russia invites geographical and cultural error. Part of Caucasus presently governed within Russian Federation, culturally belong to Caucasian cultural oikumene (ekumene). Particulary Circassian, Vainakh, Avar, Kumik cultural worlds among others. When discussing ethnographic arms of Caucasus it is imperative to make this kind of distinction. In aspects of warfare and weaponry Russian presence was that of a cultural intruder and surprisingly borrower of local traditions.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:22 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Very good information Ariel, unfortunately when you look online, there are Caucasian / Circassian shashka being described as Cossack, Georgian, Russian etc. Most with a few exceptions as you noted have simply been improperly described


Allow me to point out that though there are plenty of incorrectly attributed Circassian shashkas online, there are distinct type of Georgian shashka (noteworthy it was not called shashka in Georgian ) and other Georgian types of swords, which shared fundamental features of guardless sabers.

Circassian shashka in my opinion is brilliant weapon, a crowning specimen of special type of swords that emerged and underwent development in Caucasus region. There is a definite genealogical line of these kind of weapons. Shahska does not stand totally apart.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:33 AM   #168
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Vakhtang,
Glad to finally see you here.
This forum definitely needs people of your expertise.
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