Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd July 2016, 03:02 PM   #1
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 121
Default Solo keris for comment.

Hello,
Here is a Solo keris (I think) with a strong straight blade.
The pamor is simple (Ngulit Semangka?), but I have failed to identify the Dapur.

The blade measures 34.5 cm and the selut is made of copper (or copper alloys) with gilding.
Attached Images
   
Athanase is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 07:11 PM   #2
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,988
Default

Don't look Central Javanese to my eyes, I would place this keris more to East Java or to the North Coast, I tend to the last one. Would be interesting what others have to say.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 08:03 PM   #3
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,022
Default

Hello,
Only the hilt is from Solo IMO (but with a very curved shape), the blade and scabbard rather look from East Java. The blade has a simple dapur (kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, pejetan, full greneng, and grooves on the sirah cecak like Balinese blades) which may be identified as Kala Dete according to the EK, and the pamor pattern as Pedaringan Kebak. Other opinions are welcome!
Regards
PS: I agree with Detlef that the blade may also originate from the North Coast.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 08:10 PM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

I would agree Detlef, that dress is not Solo.
Sempana Bener might be a good guess on dhapur, though as far as i know that dhapur does not include greneng beyond the gonjo and on yours it seems to extend onto the blade itself. Closer images of the base of the blade might be helpful.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 10:42 PM   #5
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 121
Default

Yes greneng begins on the blade.
This is a detail that was that I could not find the dapur.
I thought he came from Solo due to the handle.
For warangka gayaman I can recognize those of Madura and Yogyakarta but not those of other Java region. I don't know what is good documentation on this subject.

Thank you for your help.
Athanase is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 10:47 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

Nothing at all Solo about this keris.

It is fairly rustic work, and I cannot associate it with any kraton style. It has elements of both North Coast Jawa and East Jawa, but it could be from anywhere in Jawa or from anywhere with a Javanese influence.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 07:15 AM   #7
satrionumpaknogo
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 5
Default

Madura bro ..

U see to determined Kris from which era or area you need to look on the blade not the warangka bcoz warangka or the sheet n handle can be from anywhere depend on the owner favourite

Me for example I like Walikat I dont like Solo or Jogja style. Walikat bcoz it is sheet use back in Majapahit Era, Singhasari even Medang Kamulan kingdom n it is plane wood no pendok or anything..simple n practical.

Is it means my Kris from Majapahit..for some yes but others from Tuban era, Mataram era even Madura Sumenep Dalem era

Now regarding ur Kris it is not made by Mpu kraton like others mentioned I agree however Kris is more than just wht meet the eyes. It is the wisdom n the wielder willingness to practice the wisdom in everyday life is wht count.

Salam Rahayu
satrionumpaknogo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2016, 04:52 AM   #8
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo
Me for example I like Walikat I dont like Solo or Jogja style.

Welcome to the forum Rahayu.
Perhaps you can clear up something for me. You say above that you like Walikat, but not Solo or Jogja. It seems like you are mixing apples and oranges, as they say. Solo and Jogja are regions, kingdoms, while Walikat is a style of sheath. Are you really saying you prefer Walikat to Gayaman and Ladrang style sheaths? That would make more sense to me. It has always been my understanding that each of these sheath forms serves a different social function so personally i embrace them all, though i understand your preference for the simple and elegant forms that Walikat sheaths can take.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2016, 07:06 PM   #9
satrionumpaknogo
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Welcome to the forum Rahayu.
Perhaps you can clear up something for me. You say above that you like Walikat, but not Solo or Jogja. It seems like you are mixing apples and oranges, as they say. Solo and Jogja are regions, kingdoms, while Walikat is a style of sheath. Are you really saying you prefer Walikat to Gayaman and Ladrang style sheaths? That would make more sense to me. It has always been my understanding that each of these sheath forms serves a different social function so personally i embrace them all, though i understand your preference for the simple and elegant forms that Walikat sheaths can take.



yea you maybe right but when people say Solo or Jogja in term of warangka or sheet usually refer to Gayaman or Ladrang as these particular warangka associated with those two regions.

Regarding Walikat, it is because as I said in Majapahit era n the era before it no body know about gayaman or ladrang. These two warangka created in Mataram era. Majapahit era always use Walikat not because it simple or practical because Majapahit era span 500 years and mostly peaceful era which lead to Kris become piandel or pusaka (sorry dont know what English word for it) not a killing device so no need of practical or simple warangka.

Little explanation about piandel or pusaka, is Kris become something so powerful that to show it power you dont need to unsheet it just bring it and put it in your waist. I dont know you guys westerner understand or not but I can more clearer if you allow me I will put it on it own thread.

It is also an insult when keris Sajen being said as keris Majapahit, because keris sajen been exist as far as Kadiri and Daha Kingdom era or old Sunda even Sriwijaya and Medang Kamulan era.

Keris is not a killing device this you guys must understand. Its not wavy dagger use to stab some one or to kill some one. It is Karya Sastra Adiluhung written in the language of shape n metallurgy.

I think I will write about it and open a thread because there is big misunderstanding regarding Kris been going on. It need to be corrected


Satrio Numpak Nogo sign out hehehe
satrionumpaknogo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2016, 08:21 PM   #10
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo
yea you maybe right but when people say Solo or Jogja in term of warangka or sheet usually refer to Gayaman or Ladrang as these particular warangka associated with those two regions.

Regarding Walikat, it is because as I said in Majapahit era n the era before it no body know about gayaman or ladrang. These two warangka created in Mataram era. Majapahit era always use Walikat not because it simple or practical because Majapahit era span 500 years and mostly peaceful era which lead to Kris become piandel or pusaka (sorry dont know what English word for it) not a killing device so no need of practical or simple warangka.

Little explanation about piandel or pusaka, is Kris become something so powerful that to show it power you dont need to unsheet it just bring it and put it in your waist. I dont know you guys westerner understand or not but I can more clearer if you allow me I will put it on it own thread.

It is also an insult when keris Sajen being said as keris Majapahit, because keris sajen been exist as far as Kadiri and Daha Kingdom era or old Sunda even Sriwijaya and Medang Kamulan era.

Keris is not a killing device this you guys must understand. Its not wavy dagger use to stab some one or to kill some one. It is Karya Sastra Adiluhung written in the language of shape n metallurgy.

I think I will write about it and open a thread because there is big misunderstanding regarding Kris been going on. It need to be corrected


Satrio Numpak Nogo sign out hehehe


Thanks for your response. I think we would all enjoy hearing your further perspectives on keris in a separate thread. You may want to spend some time in our archives first though, to understand just what we actually do understand here before attempting to correct any perceived misconceptions. This is an international forum made up of collectors from all around the world and we have many Indonesian members as well as Westerners. There are many members here who have been studying the keris and keris culture for decades including a member who apprenticed in keris making with a Keraton Empu for many years. The vast majority of our members are well aware that "Keris Majapahit" is a misnomer and that keris sajen is far better term for this type of keris and that Ladrang and Gayaman sheath styles are latter developments than the Walikat form. It would be a good idea to get to know your audience before you tell them how wrong they have been. Your words, knowledge and opinions are welcome here and will be respected. We would ask that you do the same regarding the knowledge and opinions of our other members.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2016, 02:06 AM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

The first image is from the Candi Sukuh site.

Candi Sukuh is a 15th century sacred site that has been reliably dated to around 1437AD.

"Gapura buta mangan wong", the accepted reading of the chronogram giving the related date is 9531 = 1359 Saka or 1437AD.


The second image is from Candi Penataran, an East Javanese temple complex constructed between the 12th and 15th century, with one reliable date of 1369AD. Candi Penataran was visited regularly by the Majapahit ruling hierarchy.


The Kingdom of Majapahit was established in 1293 by Raden Wijaya. It began to decline following the death of Hayam Wuruk in 1389; the Kingdom finally collapsed some time between 1478 and 1525.


The Kingdom of Majapahit lasted for about 200 years.


Both Candi Sukuh and Candi Penataran were active sacred sites during the Majapahit era.


Please take note of the keris scabbards shown in the carvings below.

As an after thought, I probably should add this comment:-

belief in the nature of the keris has varied throughout the period of its existence, and is also dependent upon the geographic location of the followers of that belief, and of the philosophical orientation of those believers, thus, if we are to specify the nature of the keris we need to also specify the limiting parameters of that nature.
Attached Images
  
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2016, 05:59 AM   #12
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

Thanks Alan. I would say that the sheath in the first image, if the order hasn't reversed on my screen, has many attributes of a ladrang form.
I cannot really tell as much from the second image except to say it does not look like walikat to my eyes.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2016, 06:46 AM   #13
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

The second image is pretty poor, it is an old 35mm photo that I digitised. What struck me about it when I saw the carving is that it is to all intents and purposes what we would now recognise as a Bugis keris.

The Candi Sukuh wrongko has been copied in recent wronkos a number of times, but it does definitely look like a ladrangan form. In the photo its not all that clear, but when you look closely at the actual carving, the hilt seems to closely resemble a Bugis style rather than any Javanese style.

We do tend to think of Solo and Jogja styles when we think of gayaman or ladrangan, but it is as well to bear in mind that other areas also have their own formal and non-formal styles.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2016, 05:18 PM   #14
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

Thanks for the clarifications Alan. Yes, my first impression of the second photo was that it reminded me of the Bugis form, but i didn't want to comment on an image that i found hard to decipher like that.
Do we have any photographic evidence of early Jawa/Bali/Madura sheaths that might exist in European collections that were gathered in late Mojophahit times? Off the top of my head the oldest sheath i can recall seeing from this area (and i am not sure that it's exact origins have ever been determined, is it Bali or Jawa?) is the "Sendai keris" which we can at least date to somewhere around 1600 or perhaps a bit earlier. That sheath has some similarities to what we consider walikat while also displaying flourishes of the more formal ladrangan form on the front side.
Unfortunately most sheaths of such antiquity have not survived over time.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 12:47 AM   #15
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

Niccolo de Conti probably reached parts of S.E. Asia in the early 1400's

In the late 1500's an Englishman named Fitch reached Malacca.

The Portuguese reached Malacca in 1511, and a year later reached Jawa and some of the other islands that now make up Indonesia.

It was not until the 1600's that there was any serious European contact with S.E Asia, and particularly with Jawa.

European contact with Jawa was initially with the trading enclaves along the North Coast, all of which were strongly influenced by Islamic style long before the European contact.

During the Majapahit era the merchants in these Islamic enclaves adopted much of the style of Majapahit, however, they adopted the style in an absence of understanding content, so when the keris became a profane object it acquired a nature that was shaped by a different ethic to that which applied within the Majapahit court.

The earliest keris held in European collections all date from this time, and most do not have any scabbard or part of a scabbard. No keris scabbards exist which date from the time of Majapahit, our only guide is the representations of scabbards found in monumental carvings.

However, bearing in mind the massive migration of people from East Jawa to Bali, both before and after the final collapse of Majapahit, together with the active rejection by Balinese rulers of contact with Jawa, following the dominance of Islam in Jawa, I believe it is reasonable to look at Balinese styles of keris scabbard and use those as a guide to the probable form of pre-Islamic Javanese keris scabbards.

I do not believe that there is any evidence that the flamboyant styles of the Central Javanese scabbard originated during the Second Mataram Era, but there is strong circumstantial evidence that these styles did develop (as distinct from originate) during this period.

From the time of Sutawijaya (Panembahan Senopati) the House of Mataram was very actively engaged in trying to validate their claim to kingship, and much of the style of Modern Jawa was shaped by these actions, for instance, the development of the Modern Javanese language and the extreme nature of Javanese societal hierarchy can probably be attributed to the early rulers of the House of Mataram trying to elevate themselves above the rest of society.

It is probably reasonable to assume that dress styles were also developed that tended to elevate the people at the top of the societal pyramid, and the keris is an item of dress.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 02:22 AM   #16
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,307
Default

Thanks Alan. I knew that serious contact from Europe didn't take place until around then, but wasn't sure if there was a possibility that a wrongko from the late Mojopahit might have ended up in European hands. Since we don't have any actual sheaths to judge from it seems that the artistic depiction in old temples is the best we have to go on.
Can you think of any sheaths in collections anywhere that might pre-date the Sendai keris?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 02:27 AM   #17
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

From memory, no, but I do have notes and records from my examination of the Bargello, Copenhagen and Dresden collections and I could do some comparisons, however, this would take time. Its easy & quick to write from memory, checking things takes a lot longer.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 11:41 AM   #18
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 802
Default

The matters with early sheaths are not so simple, and there is more important material available.

The Portuguese contacts in Java from 1512 on were, of course, with Hindu believers.

There is an inventory of Guarda Roupa (wardrobe, an analogue to Kunstkammer) of the King Manuel I of Portugal from 1522. A Keris is mentioned, with rock crystal hilt and scabbard adorned with rubies, and two other Keris, whose hilts were carved in the form of women (Heritage of Rauluchantim, catalogue of an exhibition held in Museu de Sao Roque in Lisboa, 1996). Another mentioning of this inventory in Exotica, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, 2000, says, these two other Keris have wooden scabbards, and the hilts are made from horn, adorned with rubies.

As I have written before, there is a possibility, that one of these Kerisses is the so called Deutschordens-Kris in Vienna.


Two quite famous Englishman visited Bali and Southern Java before 1600 - Francis Drake in 1580 and Thomas Cavendish in 1588. The first Dutch expedition reached Bali in 1597.

Contacts of both Drake and Cavendish on Java and Bali were with "gentiles", (the word used by English to distinguish Hindus from Muslims).

Drake brought a number of locally made weapons, including Keris, to England. There is a possibility, they still are in existence.


The oldest sheath with provenance is the other one from Vienna, first mentioned in 1607.

The hilt figure of this ensemble has a Keris at the waist, a clearly pronounced Ladrangan, as flamboyant as one from PBX era. It is of course no proof a Ladrangan like that existed in real life, as it is true for many elements in Wayang depictions. Yet the idea of Ladrangan was present.

(Try to carve a Ladrangan in wood and then in Andesite. You will experience the artistic limits of the material.)

Stylistically the carving of the figure shows a strong Majapahit influence or even could be Majapahit.

A good comparison to the Gambar of this sheath is Keris, depicted at the back of a Bhima-Kertolo statue from Museum Nasional, 15th cent. The point of Gandar of the sheath shows an embellishment at the same place where Keris Nr. EDb 24 from Kopenhagen (Jensen's book, page 69) has a floral carving. This Keris, blade and sheath, could perhaps be one of the oldest preserved.

As a conclusion - we absolutely can't rule out a possibility to still have a Majapahit sheath around somewhere.
Attached Images
     
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 02:08 PM   #19
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

Gustav, in respect of early European contact with Jawa, it is important to understand the difference between the Island of Jawa and the Land of Jawa. Early Portuguese contact with people living on the Island of Jawa was in fact with Banten, a part of Sunda, not a part of the Land of Jawa.

The Portuguese assisted Banten in a military action (1522), against the Sultan of Demak, which is on the North Coast of Central Jawa, and subsequently set up a trading post at Panarukan in East Jawa, their first contact with Javanese, rather than Sundanese people was with the Muslim traders along the North Coast of Jawa, first in the military action against Demak, and then in trade with the established Muslim traders.

Since the Kingdom of Majapahit is central to this discussion we need to focus on the Land of Jawa, not the Island of Jawa.

In respect of Francis Drake, I have a vague memory that a Sumatran ruler gave Drake as keris as a gift to his queen. It may be in the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford. Drake made it to Jawa about 1580, by which time Islam was well and truly on the way to domination of Jawa, and was certainly entrenched along the coastal ports of North Jawa by this time. (If searching for this keris, spellings of creese and kris might perhaps be useful)

There are quite a number of Javanese keris that date from the late 16th century forward in European collections, but from memory I cannot recall any of these earliest keris being accompanied by scabbards.

I do agree that the absence of something does not prove its non-existence, but I really do not hold a great deal of hope that a keris scabbard that we can positively identify as having a link to the Karaton of Majapahit, prior to 1525 is ever likely to appear. Probably all we will ever have are depictions in carvings.

That hilt carving is great evidence, but regrettably too late a date for any Majapahit association. The scabbard shown on the statue is really great, and is an echo of the one in the Panataran carvings, which inclines me to the opinion that perhaps what we now think of as Bugis style scabbards were once popular in East Jawa.

Actually, we probably would need a keris scabbard from the earlier years of Majapahit, as by the time that Demak set out to eliminate Majapahit as a commercial competitor --- yes, it was all about commerce and power, not religion --- the Majapahit court had a pretty considerable content of nobles and officials who followed the Islamic faith. It was a very tolerant court.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2016, 03:04 PM   #20
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 802
Default

Alan, there was almost none trade between Portuguese and Muslims from North Coast of Java. Portuguese as Catholics didn't officially trade with Muslims, unlike the Danish and Dutch. The official Portuguese trade contact was with Hindu Kingdom of Sunda.

In respect of Francis Drake, he never visited Sumatra. You probably mixed him up with Richard Swann, who was in Sumatra 60 years later and brought back to England a Keris, gift from Sultan of Indragiri.

Francis Drake visited Bali and a port in Eastern Java, not North Coast, and his contacts were explicitly with Hindu people, as were those of Thomas Cavendish.

There are three old Keris in Ashmolean Tradescant collection, yet their provenance is not clear before 1656 or perhaps 1637.

The Sheath at the back of the Bhima/Kertolo statue is almost identical to the one provenanced from 1607 in Vienna (very important - the carvings on Gambar, including Wideng Kasatriyan), and the hilt figure with Ladrangan is the hilt of this Keris.

There are quite a big number of Keris sheaths, which go back to the 17th cent., and at least three (including the one from Sendai), which perhaps could go back to the 16th cent. All of them are Gandar Iras Sunggingans. Also perhaps some more simple sheaths, like the one from Kopenhagen I mentioned, could be that old or even older.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 11:24 AM   #21
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

Gustav, thank you for your further comments.

Yes, the Portuguese did have trade contact with Banten, but that failed, and their major trade efforts were then in the Eastern Islands, however, their first contact with Javanese people was with the North Coast traders.

The Portuguese attempted to deal direct with the source of the spice trade, the local rulers of the Moluccas, but because of deceit and unfair dealing, the local rulers soon began to consider them as very undesirable trading partners, and they preferred to continue to deal with the Muslim traders, most of whom were based in Jawa.

From about 1507 Albuquerque was very active in trying to block the long established routes used by Muslim traders to transport the spices to consumers to the west, and in 1511 he conquered Malacca, following this he ramped up his efforts and soon had control of the sea routes that linked the Spice Islands to the Mediterranean and Western Europe.

Prior to this, the spice trade had been dominated by Arab peoples. Contrary to the belief that good Christians would not deal with Muslims, the good Christians of Europe were very eager to obtain cloves, pepper and other spices from whatever source they could, and this source was an Arab one, for hundreds of years.

The Portuguese in what is now Indonesia did have contact with Muslims and were not averse to engaging in trade with them when it suited their needs.

Yes, I agree, Francis Drake did not visit the Island of Sumatra, as I noted in my post #19, my memory was a vague one, and I do not doubt that the keris that was presented to Elizabeth was brought there by somebody other than Drake. Mostly I write my posts from memory, simply because I do not have time to check everything before writing, and it is certainly true that I can forget or confuse minor, non-critical details. Correction is always appreciated.

Francis Drake did not visit Bali.

There was book published a few years ago by a Canadian retired politician named Sam Bawlf, it has a title something along the lines of "Francis Drake's Secret Voyage". It was written for a popular readership and has a similar level of accuracy to that Gavin Menzies book "1421-- the year China discovered the world". In this book Bawlf makes some really outlandish claims and the book has been the recipient of a lot of academic criticism.

One of Bawlf's claims is that Drake visited Bali, but Drake in fact went nowhere near Bali, he crossed the Pacific, hit Palau, then sailed to Mindanao, the Moluccas ( where he loaded up with a cargo of cloves), Sulawesi, Timor, then along the South Coast of the Island of Java to Cilacap, where he took on water and provisions before heading home via the Cape of Good Hope.

Bawlf also claims that because Drake uses the word Gentile to describe the people he encounters at a place which is 7 degrees 13 minutes south, Drake is in fact talking about Hindus, because Bawlf believes that the word "gentile" at that time was used to describe Hindus, and only Hindus. This is part of Bawlf's evidence that Drake did in fact visit Bali --- even though the latitude quoted is not far enough south to be Bali.

Middle English was the vernacular in England from after the Norman Conquest up until the early 1500's, this was followed by a transitional period that lasted until about the middle of the 1600's, by which time the vernacular in most of England can be classified as "Early Modern English".

In Middle English the word "Gentile" meant either a person of any non-Jewish nation, or heathen or pagan, depending upon context.

The first appearance of the word "Gentile" given the sense of "a Hindu as distinct from a Muslim" was in 1727. (Oxford on Historical Principles).

Drake visited the Spice Islands in 1579.

Bawlf's claims and conspiracy theories make entertaining reading, but it is unwise to accept what he has written as accurate.

A far better source for Drake's circumnavigation of the world is "The World Encompassed", this was published in 1628 and was compiled from the notes of Francis Fletcher, who sailed with Drake. Drake's original journal was given to Queen Elizabeth 1, but it has been lost.

All of this has got precious little to do with Majapahit keris scabbards, but if we're going to quote history, it is probably just as well to try to get it as straight as we can, as Gustav has demonstrated.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th July 2016, 07:52 PM   #22
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 802
Default

Actually the theory Francis Drake visited Bali goes back at least to 1724-27 (Franz Valentyn), according to Encyclopędia metropolitana (1845). It is possible, that Valentyn mixed up Drake and Houtman.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th July 2016, 11:33 PM   #23
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,569
Default

Yes, Cornelis de Houtman did visit Bali in 1597. By all accounts it was a disaster of a voyage, however, although a disaster, it is also considered by many to be the beginning of the Dutch colonisation of The Indies.

I suppose it is possible that Francis Drake may have visited Bali in 1597, but if so, in spirit only. He died of dysentery in 1596.

Prior to your post Gustav, I doubt that I had ever heard of Valentyn, or of the Encyclopedia Metropolitana, but I did read Bawlf, and am aware of the criticism that his work drew from many people --- but not from me:- accepted in the spirit of Gavin Menzies, or even Erich von Danniken, "Secret Voyage" is entertaining reading.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.