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Old 1st April 2016, 04:59 AM   #1
Iliad
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Default Haladie

Greetings all,

I have just acquired a Haladie, and am now posting photos. I hope that it may be of some small interest and will add to archive material. Any and all comments welcome.
Best regards to all,
Brian
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Old 4th April 2016, 02:46 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iliad
Greetings all,

I have just acquired a Haladie, and am now posting photos. I hope that it may be of some small interest and will add to archive material. Any and all comments welcome.
Best regards to all,
Brian
Brian, if possible can you post some larger images of your haladie. These are rather rare weapons judging on how few come up for sale.
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Old 4th April 2016, 05:43 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
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Indeed Brian, these are of considerable interest, and very much worthy of adding to the archived material here. As Estcrh has rightly noted, this particular type of Indian edged weapon is relatively rarely seen offered.

This form of 'haladie' is of course the style regarded as Rajput, and there seem to be variations in the serrations, fullering etc. but the triple blade seems most consistant.
This configuration with the transverse grip, guard with blade and with dagger blades on either side of the guard. The weapon is closely related to the 'saintie' which is an paired blade situation often with shield in the center, sometimes even a spear on one side, or other variations.
Whatever the case, these are considered parrying weapons.

Egerton (1880) and Stone (1934) regarded the haladie as Rajput and likely from Bundelkhand regions (now Uttar Pradesh & Madhya Pradesh) however it is hard to confine these to any particular area of course.

These origins of these paired blade parrying weapons seem likely to have come from the Bhils, aboriginal tribes in the regions of Rajputana, now Rajasthan largely with other states. Like many early Indian weapons such as the bagh nagh ; bichwa; madu (paired horns) and others these probably derived from animal horns.

One image shows that these did not always have the center guard and central spike or blade.
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Old 4th April 2016, 06:17 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The weapon is closely related to the 'saintie' which is an paired blade situation often with shield in the center, sometimes even a spear on one side, or other variations.
Whatever the case, these are considered parrying weapons.

Jim, I think you may be referring to the "sainti" which is a small parrying weapon with a center grip and a blade in the middle, the "saintie" is a small parrying spear.
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Last edited by estcrh : 4th April 2016 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 4th April 2016, 07:11 AM   #5
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Old 4th April 2016, 07:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Jim, I think you may be referring to the "sainti" which is a small parrying weapon with a center grip and a blade in the middle, the "saintie" is a small parrying spear.


Yes, actually I was, and thank you for that clarification, I hadn't noticed the difference in terms which clearly does indicate two like, but different featured weapons. Thank you!!!
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Old 4th April 2016, 11:33 AM   #7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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see below...
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Old 4th April 2016, 11:38 AM   #8
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Salaams Jim, Whilst these are considered as Indian I believe another very similar weapon appeared in the Sudan ...Please view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yOtCbAXq2g
In another reference please note the mention of the Madu the likely origin of this weapon formed by two horns.....and the mention of the Indian trade blade possibly being responsible for the Haladie appearing in Egypt and Sudan at http://art-of-swords.tumblr.com/pos...l-time-favorite
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Old 4th April 2016, 01:03 PM   #9
Jens Nordlunde
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The haladie which Jim shows in post 3 is dated HA 1221. Its the last of the ones he shows.
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
In another reference please note the mention of the Madu the likely origin of this weapon formed by two horns.....

Madu from an Indian museum I believe and below that are steel madu, notice that the horns are semetrical and not offset as in most Indian madu and haladie, also the extreme length (33 inches) is unusual.

Quote:
Indian (Maratha) madu parrying weapon, in the form of steel antelope horns, 17th century, 33 inches long. "India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900? By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)
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Old 4th April 2016, 04:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
The haladie which Jim shows in post 3 is dated HA 1221. Its the last of the ones he shows.

Conversion of Hijri A.H. (Islamic) and A. D. Christian (Gregorian) dates, 1221=1806
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Old 4th April 2016, 04:48 PM   #12
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Ibrahiim thank you for the note on the Sudanese haladie, which indeed are most often associated with these regions after the Mahdiyya, and many were brought back as trophies.
In Stone, he also notes these are referred to as 'Syrian' daggers, and I believe that the path to the Sudan was probably via the Mamluks, who ruled in Egypt as well as Syria. When they were driven out of Egypt they fled to the south and situated in Sudanese regions where many had already relocated earlier.
In my opinion this is the reason many of these are often covered in thuluth script, as that was a well known Mamluk affectation.

Jens, than you for pointing that out on the haladie I posted, and my apologies for not properly attributing it to one you had posted. I overlooked that in my notes. It is an extremely nice example!

Estcrh, I must say that I very much appreciate the examples and illustrations which you locate remarkably effectively and keenly pertinent to these discussions. I also would note that your well cited notes along with these are extremely helpful as supportive entries on those lines, which again highlights my faux pas with the one Jens had posted oops.
The conversion from Hejira to Gregorian calendar most helpful too!
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Old 5th April 2016, 01:07 AM   #13
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Here is a short essay on haladie.
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Old 5th April 2016, 01:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Here is a short essay on haladie.



An interesting synopsis on the 'haladie'.
In the reference to Rajput favor of these double bladed weapons as effective in the melee, Rajputs are among those Indian warriors who favored fighting dismounted as a point of honor. In these circumstances, the melee would seem quite typical.
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Old 6th April 2016, 02:58 AM   #15
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A few more haladie and related weapons. The serrated edge haladie below is huge (107 cm or 42 inches).
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Old 6th April 2016, 04:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Egerton (1880) and Stone (1934) regarded the haladie as Rajput and likely from Bundelkhand regions (now Uttar Pradesh & Madhya Pradesh) however it is hard to confine these to any particular area of course.

Jim here are Stones and Egertons descriptions, notice that both describe a double bladed weapon.
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Old 6th April 2016, 04:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Jim here are Stones and Egertons descriptions, notice that both describe a double bladed weapon.


Thank you so much for these excerpts from those sources! Most helpful for those who do not have the books themselves.
BTW, your PM folder is full
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Old 6th April 2016, 06:58 PM   #18
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Default I can post more pictures soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1


This is a timely thread for me since this piece from Artzi is at my local post office awaiting pick up.
Marcus
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Old 6th April 2016, 08:04 PM   #19
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As has been pointed out, earlier writing and it seems definition of these double opposed blades appear to relate to the Rajput and regional development of these as in that configuration.

While these seem to have evolved as noted from paired buffalo horns crafted into similar form blades, I am wondering if perhaps the addition of the third blade (on the guard) evolved in Rajput context from the parrying weapon we have discussed.

With the concept of the transverse grip as shown, it seems this same configuration is found on the shields with dagger blade on the center boss.
It is tempting to consider whether this kind of grip position might have been associated in any way with the katar, which of course also has a transverse grip.
It would seem that in close quarters in the melee, an extra dagger blade vertically placed on the guard (or shield boss) would be handy in awkward situation with no room for wider movement of the primary blades.

The Sudanese versions of the haladie appear to of course follow the original (Rajput and Syrian) form which as suggested likely went there via Mamluk hosts, with two opposed blades. I have not seen any African versions with the extended center blade.

In looking at these transverse situated grip weapons, in Stone (from Calvert, 1908) there is a curious gauntlet type weapon shown as Spanish and referred to as the 'manople' which also uses transverse grips.
While deviating from the main topic of parrying weapons of haladie form, it seems interesting as another associated form.

P.S. Marcus, congratulations on this outstanding example from Artzi!
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Old 10th April 2016, 04:14 PM   #20
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Default Pictures as promised

Comments welcome
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Old 11th April 2016, 03:13 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Comments welcome
A nice example, what is the measurement from tip to tip? Here is a relic, the middle blade is missing, it is 26.26 inches / 66.67 cm from tip to tip. You can see that the knuckle guard is brazed to the handle.
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Old 12th April 2016, 07:04 PM   #22
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Mine is also 26 inches tip to tip.
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Old 16th April 2016, 02:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Mine is also 26 inches tip to tip.
Thanks Marcus, once you start looking around you find that there is just not much information on haladie available.
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Old 16th April 2016, 02:33 AM   #24
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Jens dated example of 1806 is the oldest reference I can find.
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Old 16th April 2016, 02:42 AM   #25
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Information on Indian parrying weapons is hard to find, they seem to be related but what came first and who initially used them, are they all originally Rajput weapons, top down, two sainti, two madu, two haladie, saintie.
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