An axe ... what type ?

fernando · 1st January 2016, 05:22 PM

Any chance this axe is not a common working tool ?

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Gavin Nugent · 2nd January 2016, 12:11 AM

I think you can discount it as a fighting axe.

Looking at the long reach, the thickness, and the narrow cutting edge, I'd think it has a specific wood working task. The back looks flat for a purpose too.

I do not know the country of manufacture but have noted Germanic axes often have that long integral socket.

Gavin

Shakethetrees · 2nd January 2016, 01:23 AM

I have an axe very similar to yours that I posted a while back.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ight=Matchlock

It can be seen as number 19 in the attached thread. Two or three postings down from this our dear departed friend Matchlock has something relevant to this discussion. He states it is not a woodworking tool, but a battle axe. Go to the link I pasted to get the full story.

Shakethetrees · 2nd January 2016, 01:24 AM

One more thing. Is the blade very thin?

Pukka Bundook · 2nd January 2016, 03:33 AM

Shake,

Not visited your link yet, but in this case, it would seem strange for a fighting axe to have a name /brand stamped on it.
However, it Does look the part! Now I will go to your link. :-)

kronckew · 2nd January 2016, 11:12 AM

woodworking and battle axe boundary lines blur as many soldiers, especially archers & engineers took their trusty home and/or work axes with them to perform camp chores as well as assisting in fortifications and in battle. archers especially use their axes to cut , drive and sharpen the anti-cavalry stakes they preferred (one of the axes pictured in the ref. link, is shown carried over the shoulder, by an archer - he has his longbow with him.) to me it looks like a smaller version of a headsman's axe. germans especially were fond of using the axe as a multipurpose tool. they issued the same axe to the wehrmacht and the kriegsmarine for entrenching and boarding axes respectively in the 19c-20c. it did not look like this one

Lee · 2nd January 2016, 12:15 PM

It is somewhat reminiscent of a French coupe marc or 'vineyard' axe which is a tool for clearing up what is left in a wine or cider press. Those often cross into the antique arms market as 'executioner's axes.'

kronckew · 2nd January 2016, 12:25 PM

the coup marc axe seems to be quite a bit larger and with a VERY short haft

google image find: looks rather ungainly...the haft ends just off camera

Shakethetrees · 2nd January 2016, 05:09 PM

I have seen several coupes marc over the years. The difference I see is that they were designed without consideration of the arc that is followed when an axe is swung in a full, all out effort. They seem to be designed for short, straight strokes, not so much for power but for scraping or light chopping in a restricted environment.

fernando · 2nd January 2016, 06:19 PM

Thank you so much Lee, for coming in with the key words: Coupe-Marc.
Regrtefuly with my usual impatience i have bought the thing before i knew nothing about it. The low price it had versus its 'similarity' with an execution axe made dive into the deal, despite some details, like the one flat face, made me a bit uncomfortable about it.
I must admit in any case that this 'bagasse cutter' is a beast, with its 2829 grams.(6 1/4 pounds); enough for a full swinging martial weapon, i would say.

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fernando · 2nd January 2016, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I have seen several coupes marc over the years. The difference I see is that they were designed without consideration of the arc that is followed when an axe is swung in a full, all out effort. They seem to be designed for short, straight strokes, not so much for power but for scraping or light chopping in a restricted environment.

I have (only now) learnt that these devices vary a lot in shape among the various regions of France. Apparently only this specific model, so called Beaujolais, has this particular shape.
http://www.citedesarts.com/fr/Aff.php?select_nom=269
Considering that 'modern' units of this model have a lower profile, as i (now) saw out there, i find mine rather well developed, consistent with some age, most possibly 19th century ... and even more resembling a lethal weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the coup marc axe seems to be quite a bit larger and with a VERY short haft ...

google image find: looks rather ungainly...the haft ends just off camera...

The article in the link above also mentions 60 cms. hafts; in fact with the weight of my example it would need a man with extra strength to chop bagasse with only one hand ... even considering short movements.
And if you exclude that stump like haft, it doesn't look so clumsy.

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fernando · 2nd January 2016, 06:54 PM

Fresh pictures, in the various angles; couldn't decipher the maker's mark yet.
I couldn't resist doing some touch ups in the background of one of them and let the legs of Sofia, the cat, stay in it; they also can't resist entering the scene when we do unusual things

.

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fernando · 2nd January 2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

... Looking at the long reach, the thickness, and the narrow cutting edge, I'd think it has a specific wood working task. The back looks flat for a purpose too...

Good point Gavin; i didn't yet figure out the reason for one of the sides being flat

,

Lee · 2nd January 2016, 07:56 PM

The additional pictures are helpful. I have a coupe marc axe and it is larger (54.5 cm) as noted above and relatively flat on both faces, tapering symmetrically to the edge. (I will take and post some pictures along with measurements in due course.) So, considering a flat face opposite a face with a beveled edge and some nice detailing near the haft, a 'broad axe' for woodworking (such as in finishing timbers) as was previously suggested must also be considered. It could also be earlier than 19th century, though the marks may help there.

Timo Nieminen · 3rd January 2016, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I must admit in any case that this 'bagasse cutter' is a beast, with its 2829 grams.(6 1/4 pounds); enough for a full swinging martial weapon, i would say.

Given that weight, I'd think "tool", not "weapon". There are weapons of this weight, but generally long two-handed weapons. Big two-handed swords, halberds, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a battleaxe that heavy.

fernando · 3rd January 2016, 12:16 PM

So definitely the Coupe-Marc theory has ceased.
Further details like the well faceted long socket demanding a axe long handle versus the round short dull tube to fit a small grip add up to a different definition of this item.
Also the born weapon possibility is consensually declined.
Perhaps moving this thread to the miscelania section is the right thing, notwithstanding a flavor of weaponry that resides in its overall appearance ... to my eyes, i mean

.
It should however be nice to hear further approaches towards its definite purpose and provenance.
It will be a hard task to read the marks; some corroded area of the blade is precisely where the marks are, which makes it more difficult. It looks however that both converging words are the ame. Concerning the black paint, once it is not to give it a martial aspect, it could have been done for perservation, soon or late after its active period. Should i take it off, or just leave it as it is ?

kronckew · 3rd January 2016, 12:22 PM

black oil based paint was commonly used for corrosion protection both civilian and military, lots of armory & field grade weapons, armour, helmets etc. were blackened for storage between wars or protection in the field. i'd not remove it. i might even redo it (black rustoleum?). there are also acrylic based tannic acid products (find under auto products) that turn nasty red rust into a stable black form while priming the metal for a top coat.

if t were a valuable antique weapon i might just oil it occasionally (and put a stained ash or hickory haft on it.

p.s. - i'm a dummy. just noticed this is actually, as lee said, a side axe, the blade offset to one side and the chisel grind is is used in woodworking to flatten and square timbers for beams - typically used by standing on or along the trunk and swinging the edge along the side, thus a bit heavy helps. it may have gone to war with an engineer for constructing siege engines & fortifications, but they were mostly civil carpentry tools. also called a broad axe.

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpB4zvoTV1c

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2R_ZyPqwfo

Rick · 3rd January 2016, 03:56 PM

Woodworking tools for 500 Alex.

I expect there may even be left-handed models extant.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2016, 04:17 PM

Yes, a type of Broad axe, for smoothing timber.

Very nice shape to it, and differing markedly from the usual broad-axe form, but the flat side gives it away as such.
I never feel disappointed when a 'weapon' turns out as a tool as to me, the history can be very much as interesting either way!
Also, one can guarantee most tools Were used, whereas with weapons, many never really were. :-)

Congrats on a nice find!

Richard.

Lee · 3rd January 2016, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I expect there may even be left-handed models extant.

Yes, there are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I never feel disappointed when a 'weapon' turns out as a tool as to me, the history can be very much as interesting either way!

I, too, like both with the first determining factor being the quality of the workmanship. Things intended primarily as personal weapons were usually procured on a larger budget due to their role as status items, but there are also some really nice tools out there.

fernando · 3rd January 2016, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

... I expect there may even be left-handed models extant.

Those would be handy

1st January 2016, 05:22 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	An axe ... what type ? Any chance this axe is not a common working tool ? . Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 12:25 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	the coup marc axe seems to be quite a bit larger and with a VERY short haft google image find: looks rather ungainly...the haft ends just off camera Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 06:19 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thank you so much Lee, for coming in with the key words: Coupe-Marc. Regrtefuly with my usual impatience i have bought the thing before i knew nothing about it. The low price it had versus its 'similarity' with an execution axe made dive into the deal, despite some details, like the one flat face, made me a bit uncomfortable about it. I must admit in any case that this 'bagasse cutter' is a beast, with its 2829 grams.(6 1/4 pounds); enough for a full swinging martial weapon, i would say. . Last edited by fernando; 2nd January 2016 at 07:15 PM.

2nd January 2016, 06:54 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Fresh pictures, in the various angles; couldn't decipher the maker's mark yet. I couldn't resist doing some touch ups in the background of one of them and let the legs of Sofia, the cat, stay in it; they also can't resist entering the scene when we do unusual things . . Attached Images

2nd January 2016, 07:56 PM	#14
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	Nice in any case The additional pictures are helpful. I have a coupe marc axe and it is larger (54.5 cm) as noted above and relatively flat on both faces, tapering symmetrically to the edge. (I will take and post some pictures along with measurements in due course.) So, considering a flat face opposite a face with a beveled edge and some nice detailing near the haft, a 'broad axe' for woodworking (such as in finishing timbers) as was previously suggested must also be considered. It could also be earlier than 19th century, though the marks may help there.

2nd January 2016, 12:11 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I think you can discount it as a fighting axe. Looking at the long reach, the thickness, and the narrow cutting edge, I'd think it has a specific wood working task. The back looks flat for a purpose too. I do not know the country of manufacture but have noted Germanic axes often have that long integral socket. Gavin

2nd January 2016, 01:23 AM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I have an axe very similar to yours that I posted a while back. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ight=Matchlock It can be seen as number 19 in the attached thread. Two or three postings down from this our dear departed friend Matchlock has something relevant to this discussion. He states it is not a woodworking tool, but a battle axe. Go to the link I pasted to get the full story.

2nd January 2016, 01:24 AM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	One more thing. Is the blade very thin?

2nd January 2016, 03:33 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Shake, Not visited your link yet, but in this case, it would seem strange for a fighting axe to have a name /brand stamped on it. However, it Does look the part! Now I will go to your link. :-)

2nd January 2016, 11:12 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	woodworking and battle axe boundary lines blur as many soldiers, especially archers & engineers took their trusty home and/or work axes with them to perform camp chores as well as assisting in fortifications and in battle. archers especially use their axes to cut , drive and sharpen the anti-cavalry stakes they preferred (one of the axes pictured in the ref. link, is shown carried over the shoulder, by an archer - he has his longbow with him.) to me it looks like a smaller version of a headsman's axe. germans especially were fond of using the axe as a multipurpose tool. they issued the same axe to the wehrmacht and the kriegsmarine for entrenching and boarding axes respectively in the 19c-20c. it did not look like this one

2nd January 2016, 12:15 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	It is somewhat reminiscent of a French coupe marc or 'vineyard' axe which is a tool for clearing up what is left in a wine or cider press. Those often cross into the antique arms market as 'executioner's axes.'

2nd January 2016, 05:09 PM	#9
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I have seen several coupes marc over the years. The difference I see is that they were designed without consideration of the arc that is followed when an axe is swung in a full, all out effort. They seem to be designed for short, straight strokes, not so much for power but for scraping or light chopping in a restricted environment.

3rd January 2016, 12:16 PM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	So definitely the Coupe-Marc theory has ceased. Further details like the well faceted long socket demanding a axe long handle versus the round short dull tube to fit a small grip add up to a different definition of this item. Also the born weapon possibility is consensually declined. Perhaps moving this thread to the miscelania section is the right thing, notwithstanding a flavor of weaponry that resides in its overall appearance ... to my eyes, i mean . It should however be nice to hear further approaches towards its definite purpose and provenance. It will be a hard task to read the marks; some corroded area of the blade is precisely where the marks are, which makes it more difficult. It looks however that both converging words are the ame. Concerning the black paint, once it is not to give it a martial aspect, it could have been done for perservation, soon or late after its active period. Should i take it off, or just leave it as it is ?

3rd January 2016, 12:22 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	black oil based paint was commonly used for corrosion protection both civilian and military, lots of armory & field grade weapons, armour, helmets etc. were blackened for storage between wars or protection in the field. i'd not remove it. i might even redo it (black rustoleum?). there are also acrylic based tannic acid products (find under auto products) that turn nasty red rust into a stable black form while priming the metal for a top coat. if t were a valuable antique weapon i might just oil it occasionally (and put a stained ash or hickory haft on it. p.s. - i'm a dummy. just noticed this is actually, as lee said, a side axe, the blade offset to one side and the chisel grind is is used in woodworking to flatten and square timbers for beams - typically used by standing on or along the trunk and swinging the edge along the side, thus a bit heavy helps. it may have gone to war with an engineer for constructing siege engines & fortifications, but they were mostly civil carpentry tools. also called a broad axe. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpB4zvoTV1c and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2R_ZyPqwfo Last edited by kronckew; 3rd January 2016 at 12:54 PM.

3rd January 2016, 03:56 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Woodworking tools for 500 Alex. I expect there may even be left-handed models extant.

3rd January 2016, 04:17 PM	#19
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Yes, a type of Broad axe, for smoothing timber. Very nice shape to it, and differing markedly from the usual broad-axe form, but the flat side gives it away as such. I never feel disappointed when a 'weapon' turns out as a tool as to me, the history can be very much as interesting either way! Also, one can guarantee most tools Were used, whereas with weapons, many never really were. :-) Congrats on a nice find! Richard.