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Old 1st August 2015, 01:30 PM   #61
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.



Salaams ariel, Are you referring to the sword at $1? since the SOARES inscription is not the project I am trying to translate?? Observe the Norwegian for the word Svare...which means answer respond or reply... seems like a reasonable solution except its got an S on the end but these inscriptions are rarely accurate...

However, please do look at the letters on #1 and tell me what language in western Europe uses the form that is similar to A 51UU A

Where the two A looking characters are quite different to European A style having a vee or tee shaped crossbar and which is almost identical to OCS.

Where the letter Zayin (similar to a 5 with no top) is a Hebrew Cursive letter...

Where the two letter U forms are also Hebrew. They appear as almost IJ close together...

Finally if you have a better idea or your associate can help by all means lets hear it from that quarter ...

Which European language/western language might this be from? I would be delighted to hear it.

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 1st August 2015, 03:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

Ian



Salaams Ian, For sure the blade is European ...I would say Portuguese, Italian or German style like Papenheimer or something similar... but the script...whilst it may mean nothing is taunting since it is so close to some of the varieties like OCS and Hebrew... I just cant match a European alphabet to it... I still think Hebrew may be the answer however I am sure it will turn up some day...

Actually, though it would be nice to crack the code it doesn't really matter since the essence of the idea and the peculiar circumstances of this blade and others like it into and out of the Red Sea Arena are more clearly understood with such examples albeit with much skulduggery attached. Fortunately we have uncovered this practice of hilt switching having shone the bright light (of field research) into that dark corner..

It's no great surprise since even great museums around the world are infiltrated with very clever stuff...As they say... "If only they could talk" ?

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 1st August 2015, 04:05 PM   #63
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Default +SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+

Think of the X's not as letters but as 'separators', as often happens.
Then you a continued sequence of the terms related, mispell allowed, with the latin verb ORARE (orar em portuguese, meaning to pray).
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Old 1st August 2015, 07:57 PM   #64
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Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim
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Old 2nd August 2015, 10:52 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim




Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. As you know the ''whats in a word conundrum'' accelerates into hyperspace once the Runic/ Talismanic and hidden meanings of Latin, Hebrew or associated script arrives in the 21st Century from way back when... For example as Fernando has explained the x is not an x and sometimes the spelling is contrived.

Your analysis on the swords birthplace is likely and though I knew very little about European blades before now this opportunity to get down and examine them here has been a great experience.

A number of additional things have surfaced in this thread not least the complicated Pommel which I believe in its own right would make a fantastic exhibit in a creditable Museum since it is a genuine old Omani Dancing Sword part probably from the early days of dancing swords in the early first or second decade of the 19thC . Not only does it portray an Islamic 6 pointed star but on another face a very impressive gridded keyboard arrangement playing with the arabic figure five O...The Talismanic 5.

Having this detail on library is so important to potential students and in its own right this Pommel could form the basis for a very good PHD study.

Thanks again for your post.

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Old 2nd August 2015, 02:01 PM   #66
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For all readers I would like to quote a remarkable piece from wikipedia which underpins the almost impossible task (unless your rubic cube reassembly time is under 25 seconds) of unscrambling these sword inscriptions...

I QUOTE "The Pernik sword
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia~

The Pernik sword is a medieval double-edged iron sword unearthed in the ruins of the medieval fortress of Krakra near Pernik, western Bulgaria, on 1 January 1921. It bears an inscription in silver inlay on the blade.

The sword is preserved in the National Archaeological Museum of Bulgaria in Sofia under inventory number 2044. The sword is 96 centimetres (38 in) in length and up to 4.5 cm (1.8 in) in width.

The inscription, written in the Latin alphabet, was long considered incomprehensible. It reads as follows:

“ +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+ ”

Two decipherments have been proposed. One view, expressed in the original archaeological publication about the sword, has been that the text represents a series of Latin abbreviations of sacred formulae that were intended to bring good fortune, as found on other swords from the 12th and 13th centuries.

Following the transcriptions proposed by other authors for similar letter sequences, one Bulgarian author suggested a tentative reading of the Pernik inscription along the lines of "IH(ESUS). IN I(HESUS) N(OMINE). IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) I(HESUS) D(OMINI) H(RISTUS). IN IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) N(OSTRIS)",

that is to say "Jesus -- in Jesus' name -- Jesus, the Virgin -- praise of the Father, Jesus, the Lord, Christ -- in Jesus, the Virgin - praise of Our Father" (the de-abbreviated words have not been consistently declined).

To put this into perspective, it may be observed that on other swords, the common formula in nomine domini, "in the Lord's name" was abbreviated in ways ranging from the unmistakable NNOMNEDMN to the heavily distorted NINOMINED, OIEDOMINI, INNIOINNEDINI, etc.

Longer inscriptions could be incoherent and contracted to the point of complete opacity, for example INPMPNC I(n) n(omine) p(atris) M(ater) p(atris) n(ostri) C(hristi), "In the name of the Father. Mother of Our Father Christ" or IINBITTPINI I(esus). I(n) n(omine) b(eati) I(esu). T(rinitas). T(rinitas). P(atris) I(esu) n(omine) I(n), "Jesus -- in the name of the blessed Jesus -- Trinity -- Trinity -- Of the Father -- of Jesus -- the name -- in".

A more recent attempt at decipherment, dating from 2005, suggested that the inscription was in an early West Germanic language (Austro-Bavarian or Lombardic of ca. the 6th to 8th century). The proposed parsing is "IH INI NI hVIL PIDH, INI hVIL PN", meaning "I do not await eternity, I am eternity", or literally "I inside not time wait, inside time am" (hvil being cognate to English while and German Weile). If the parsing is plausible or at least the identification of the written language is correct, the text is of great importance to the history of Germanic languages". UNQUOTE.

I might add~"Whilst somewhat bewildering to Ethnographic Sword enthusiasts" !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernik_sword
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Old 2nd August 2015, 04:00 PM   #67
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Default Jesus Virgin ...

Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons
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Old 2nd August 2015, 04:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons



Yes that may be your take on it..and I would not argue with that...but... as the passage indicates that "the de abbreviated words have not been consistently declined" moreover I think it is what it doesn't say which is relevant and quite beyond me, that is, ...To even get close to this often secretive meaning ones armoury should contain a host of certificates not least a degree in Latin and Greek as well as Hebrew,OCS, Old Bulgarian, Cyrillic and on top of that a highly specialized understanding of Biblical Studies ... The specialty benefiting from Bulgarian Runic inscriptions as well as Taliaman symbols and secret texts etc.

It is simply not enough to be grounded in a few Latin phrases and sayings as it is literally clouded in short initials and secrecy... and at the end of the day it may be uncrackable!!

It is as complex a subject as Talismanic signs thus this is indeed the Rubic Cube of Ethnographic Weapons study...and I have to say it is a bridge somewhat beyond my ability.

I also do not think it wholly central to the thread as I see it...since the essence of what we are looking at is swords of a certain origin not of the country of manufacture but assuming the cloak of originality knitted by a master of disguises...and although I am very intrigued by the Pommel and Talismans described earlier, I am not so concerned now with the blade or what is upon it. Naturally others may take this on if they have a few hours to spare !! though it is a real monster ! It is hardly surprising that there are few documents available on the subject.

Thank you very much for showing some of the complexities of this puzzling subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 04:27 PM   #69
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I think i should come back to lettering issue, even if i am in part correcting my previous consideration.
My idea is that, the contents of what i have learnt may be useful for collectors general knowledge.
Having consulted some of my old books in Portuguese armoury (Viterbo 1907-1908), i foccused on the the way the name of Jesus Christ and document dating were practised in the XVI century, when Kings issued letters of previlege to armoury smiths.
I can not type the way these were done, as current keyboards do not have such characters, as also the fonts used by Viterbo printers in 1907 may also be a bit distorced.
This way i show parts in the book where Jesus Christ "initials" are mentioned, as well as a genuine print that comes in a "reformulation of the Rules of the Order of Christ" (ex-Templars), published in 1503.
In both cases the letter H has a place but, above all, it is interesting to know how these symbols may appear in weapons ... and not only.
Also the type of dating is most interesting as, being Roman numeration, is rather different than that used nowadays. I phoned the experts in Torre do Tombo (National Archives) and they told me that, in that early period, Roman numeration had a difftent 'convention' ... which i, for one, was not aware of.
I also upload here a couple examples contained in such letters of previlege so that, if these figures show up in old (Portuguese) swords, won't be a complete surprise.

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Old 3rd August 2015, 05:12 PM   #70
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Fernando, that is really very interesting. Thanks for your work on this.

Ian
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:12 PM   #71
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How interesting! I have never seen this particular style of numbering and dating before, I think it must be an exclusively Portuguese practice?
Andreas
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas
How interesting! I have never seen this particular style of numbering and dating before, I think it must be an exclusively Portuguese practice?
Andreas

Ah, silly me ... i could have asked .
But i was so surprised by having an expert from the National Archives answering my direct questions that i dared not be boring.
Will try and find out with some intensive (so it seems) browsing in the Portuguese web.

But at least ...
I asked her if that was an internal practice of the Torre do Tombo (National Archives) and she no; documents are revealed as they original were.

And not only these numbers were used for dating but also to quantify things, as seen, for one, in the vast inventory of the Arsenal of Tanger, taken in 1568, where listed items, like crossbows, helmets, cannons and so, were accounted with such numeration.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:34 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Fernando, that is really very interesting. Thanks for your work on this.

Ian



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Old 4th August 2015, 10:44 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
But i was so surprised by having an expert from the National Archives answering my direct questions that i dared not be boring.


I know exactly what you mean!!
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Old 4th August 2015, 12:05 PM   #75
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And now, for those who have fun with talismanic writings, here is the contents of the blank page that preeceds the prologue of "Rules of the Knights of the Order of Christ".

The hand written paragraph says:

Letras de muita virtude para trazerem consigo; which in a free interpretation means Letters of most virtue that you should bring with you.
Note this time are the crosses that are used as 'separators'; particularly crosses of Christ.
Also note the author says letters ... not initials.

I hope Ibrahiim tolerates my hijaking his thread, but i guess he enjoys this particular part.

.
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Old 4th August 2015, 04:41 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
And now, for those who have fun with talismanic writings, here is the contents of the blank page that preeceds the prologue of "Rules of the Knights of the Order of Christ".

The hand written paragraph says:

Letras de muita virtude para trazerem consigo; which in a free interpretation means Letters of most virtue that you should bring with you.
Note this time are the crosses that are used as 'separators'; particularly crosses of Christ.
Also note the author says letters ... not initials.

I hope Ibrahiim tolerates my hijaking his thread, but i guess he enjoys this particular part.

.



Absolutely not a problem in fact I consider this a masterclass. My problem is that there are two sword blades to consider and in the case of one it appears as Latin whereas the blade of #1 is in my view either Hebrew or something related like Old Church Slavonic ...which is linked. I see no Latin in the inscription at #1 and whereas I am delighted to learn the amazing details you have uncovered ...and I have to say I have never seen it noted on these pages before thus it is a first for library !!...and most eloquently presented...

It is apparent that this is a field of study completely missed by most people as is the other aspect of this thread (or one of them) which is the Talismanic nature of the pommel face showing the gridded format common in Arabian artefacts based on the figure five (itself Talismanic) ..

I think that there is a lot of scope to either continue the discussion as you have picked it up...or to open under another thread the intracacies of the amazing subject in its own right...and perhaps for someone to further split the thread into its other part viz;Talismanic signs in General or as you may advise. I spent a few days considering the Talismanic aspects of various items in this sector and the possibilities are huge. The 6 pointed star is monumental in its own right and there are massive texts on such items as Silver Talisman Rings throughout Africa. Trying to focus on sword blade Talismans is virtually impossible so the subjects may have to relocate to the Miscellaneous section perhaps?

On a technicality it could go to the European as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks



Note; Several hours may be required for readers to absorb the details on Medieval Inscriptions on European Swords however it is well worth a glance. Please see http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get.../FULLTEXT01.pdf

Citation for the original published paper (version of record):
Wagner, T., Worley, J., Holst Blennow, A., Beckholmen, G. (2009)
Medieval Christian invocation inscriptions on sword blades.
Waffen- und Kostümkunde, 51(1): 11-52


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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 4th August 2015, 06:53 PM   #77
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Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.
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Old 4th August 2015, 09:45 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.


Thanks Ian, If I may be a little clearer ...

1. Swords with Latin inscriptions, though there are some which occur on Indian Swords imported from Europe and a classic is at the Wallace as an example and I am sure there will be others around the globe; it is still unusual to find blades in the East with Latin inscriptions particularly in Arabia.( Naturally there will be those swords in the far east that arrived with the voyages of discovery etc but as for Arabia I do not count the odd one or two said to have Andrea Ferrera marks or copied Passau Wolf...etc and it would be quite wrong to attribute the swords shown at thread as being of original and honest construction..

The fact is that swords in Arabia generally have Arabic or Persian or Turkish inscriptions if they are inscribed or a particular mark moon or an incantation to God . The equation East meets West is difficult to engineer. (Trade blades, I believe, are best dealt with separately.)

On the subject of Talisman marks it is even more unlikely (I would say impossible ) as the religious or pre religious markers are so differently based. I think this subject also is in itself divided....since it evolved separately in the East and West....even though vague connections may exist the vast majority of such Talisman concepts are unrelated across the East West divide.
************************************************** ****************
2. There are documents on western calligraphy, short bible forms of script, secret inscriptions, runes, Gothic, Latin, Viking, (The Ulberft sword etc) which make for a study in their own right .. and most are very high level examinations. (Before anyone writes in to complain I am aware that we have a number of members who have the required scientific know how to take on these complex papers but I speak generally!)

Whilst I always advise students to get stuck into these references, I have to admit some are quite heavy going but by all means forum ought to have a go...noting that large portions of the material conclude that much of the Viking/Latin /Germanic inscriptions on blades are undecipherable and some marks were actually secret and known only to the owner of the Sword.

I would hate to advise anyone to study something which is in fact pulverisingly difficult even for a rocket scientist to handle. It is, however, really interesting to see these amazing notes and details as reported on by Fernando and I believe the examination as it stands is a great step forward for Forum ..and library is a better informed place.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 6th August 2015, 04:25 PM   #79
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So if you think this is difficult have a look at Harry Wagners http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20332 where The Smithsonian has a really difficult one to decipher.

The reference is playing it difficult thus here is the entire document without pictures...Quote"Help Us Decipher This Inscription

Visitors to Magna Carta: Law, Liberty, Legacy may have noticed that we have one or two objects on display, in addition to the many manuscripts and documents telling Magna Carta's 800-year-old story. One of those objects is a double-edged sword, found in the first section of the exhibition, on loan to the British Library from our friends at the British Museum.

The item in question was found in the River Witham, Lincolnshire, in July 1825, and was presented to the Royal Archaeological Institute by the registrar to the Bishop of Lincoln. It weighs 1.2 kg (2 lb 10 oz) and measures 964 mm (38 in.) in length and 165 mm (6½ in.) across the hilt; if struck with sufficient force, it could easily have sliced a man’s head in two.

BM-Sword
A double-edged sword, 13th century, possibly of German manufacture but discovered in England in the 19th century (British Museum 1858,1116.5): image courtesy of the British Museum

An intriguing feature of this sword is an as yet indecipherable inscription, found along one of its edges and inlaid in gold wire. It has been speculated that this is a religious invocation, since the language is unknown. Can you have a go at trying to decipher it for us? Here's what the inscription seems to read:

+NDXOXCHWDRGHDXORVI+

- In my opinion before even attempting this please have a look at the considerable variation unearthed by some quite astute observations and suggestions from Saxon through Maltese, Latin, Welsh and other alphabets...It really is interesting... and filled with clues...See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk...h.Ot2vu7fe.dpuf

************************************************** **************


As a matter of interest we have at Forum an already examined particular reference from our own Library which on closer inspection yields the same sword type as at #1 with an interesting set of letters of which the first appears the same as our difficult clipped 5 without its top.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...rtuguese+swords and view the second photograph of#6

I thus conclude that the sword type is the same as #1 but that the combining of the #1 hilt is entirely 21st Century attempting to show the entire weapon as an earlier Omani Dancing Sword. The illusion is transparent. The second sword shows an equally European blade rehilted with an Omani Battle Sword Hilt . The same forger appears to have worked on these blades within the same time scale adding elements of Royal Hilting and an Omani scbbard to further cloud the issue..

This is in some ways rather unfortunate since the classic pommel on #1 is a valuable item in its own right whilst the combining of blades and swords in both cases hundreds of years out of sync are exceptionally unfortunate errors (if in fact forgers consider errors!!) despite the intriguing letters on the imported European blades.

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Old 7th August 2015, 12:02 AM   #80
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I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.

It is important to note that these kinds of letter combinations and groupings have remarkably long history, and in decipherable, seemingly coded groups of letters extend into Anglo-Saxon history on some seaxs found. They are known on Frankish and Viking swords well into medieval times. It is generally held these are acrostic in nature, though other types of arrangements are known as well. In many cases, various sacerdotal and invocative phrases have been somewhat decoded.

In Italy, the Caino makers and Picinino seem to have favored these incongruent letter groupings in varied form. They seem to be used in what is known as reductive where each group of letters reduces by one, and in another line they are regrouped in anagram type arrangement. This seems to eliminate acrostic possibility, but it is virtually unimaginable how these can be meant. These kinds of groupings of course became well used in the German blade decoration along with other spurious marks etc.

What has presented the greatest obstacle in the plausible revealing of the meaning of many of these letter combinations and groupings has been the factoring in of many occult, esoteric and magical features. In cases, such as with cabbalistic potential, there are often integrated sigils and devices in the linear letter groups in acrostic setting, as well as those used with numeric value. The very secret nature of these of course makes anything beyond speculative suggestions virtually invalid.

We can of course observe the character of the lettering, devices or sigils, as well as the context in the blade form and features, just as been done here.

I think it has been well established that there is a great deal of the use of older and often European blades in refurbished traditional dress in certain locations in Oman just as a number of other locations.

The refurbishing of ethnographic swords by remounting blades in traditional dress seems well known in most cultures. Blades are a valuable commodity, and especially if they are heirloom. In the case of Arabian swords, it does seem that traditional forms are important in cultural and status sense, much as are janbiyya and other edged weapons.
As long as these weapons are openly regarded as 'refurbished' using old blade and new mounts, there is no issue. If a sword is 'refurbished' and passed off as homogenous and of noted antiquity, it is a problem.

If a blade is combined with incongruent other vintage components, unless those are heirloom items along with blade, or these have combined traditional significance, it seems OK as long as the elements combined are represented as 'composite'.

Here we are involved in the study of swords or weapons in most cases from a historic content, and if a weapon is refurbished without proper notice in description, it defeats and compromises the value of the weapon historically. It is understandable that such weapons are valued traditionally and as appropriate status symbols, but they should be so described.

Having said all that, what is important in this thread, is the discussion of the blade in #1, the subject of the thread, as well as the apparently incongruent pommel, noted as not originally with this blade.

The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!
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Old 8th August 2015, 07:06 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.


The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!



Salaams Jim and thank you for you well timed analysis so far on this important subject. I was looking through library and found a reference at http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...n-the-terrible/ which again examines the possible meaning on the blade.

I personally prefer the wider meaning/theory behind the writing rather than the absolute meaning not least because of the time it takes to even begin to unravel the basics... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang..

Thanks again for your important input.

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th August 2015, 12:49 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang...

Let's then copy (better than move) this thread to the European section. Remember that future posts will not have a 'dual' effect, but will only fall into the forum they are directed to.
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Old 21st October 2018, 03:42 AM   #83
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Only 3 years passed since the last post... In Darwinian term it is a millisecond:-)
Is the blade hexagonal? Or clearly lenticular ( i.e. biconvex)?
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Old 21st October 2018, 04:38 PM   #84
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To my eyes and judging by its ricasso, it starts hexagonal, and would change to lenticular ... both on the thin side .
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Old 9th November 2018, 06:01 PM   #85
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Lech Marek places a fascinating piece of research on the detail around BENEDICTus style inscriptions on sword blades see http://www.academia.edu/13386318/TH...ol._10_pp._9-20

This is hugely detailed but is also very informative describing the ritual of blessing swords etc...
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Old 10th November 2018, 11:19 AM   #86
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To my eyes this hexagonal blade looks like a worn out and modified example of a Spanish cavalry blade 1728 pattern. They produced it in different sizes till the end of 18 century when they switched to the curved blade.

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab_e.htm

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Old 10th November 2018, 01:51 PM   #87
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In looking at my reference thus staying on Benidictus style script I see the letters again could be interesting ..

M 51 DD M

The Book of Revelation is often referred to as 51... So are we off to a reasonable set of meaningful code?

In suggesting Portuguese origin of blade form at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...rtuguese+swords it could of course point to another source as actual blade manufacture; Solingen. This would suggest the religious nature of the blade marks as being in line with the reference above at http://www.academia.edu/13386318/TH...ol._10_pp._9-20

Could the DD indicate In Nomini Domini or perhaps Dominus Deus? http://www.academia.edu/13386318/TH..._10_pp._9-20and the two outer M shapes be some sort of decorative introduction or brackets?

This weapon is indeed interesting as an Ethnographic example whereby an old blade has been given a mixed cloak namely the Solomon star decoration and the added extension of extra tang and Pommel of an Omani Dancing Sword. The blade appears much older than the Pommel which is from a distinctive 19thC Dancing Sword style. I have shown in a previous post how this is achieved and particularly in the souk workshops of Muttrah where it is common practice. It should be noted that in the case of Omani Dancing Swords a weak point caused by vibration is about half way up the tang...Omani Dancers are made with tang and pommel and blade in one piece and it may be observed that the curved Omani Kattara is not so it has to have a tang extension and pommel added to every weapon...

I digress... however, it is the tang and Pommel which brings the entire weapon to the table from the Ethnographic viewpoint. Decoration to the Pommel is superb following the Solomon style star but I have never seen it before on a Pommel.

By way of a correction it may be seen that the initial and final letters are not the M letter but the old fashioned way of presenting the letter A

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Old 11th November 2018, 09:24 AM   #88
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The objective is to crack this code A 5 1 D D A Where the A is in Majescule form at both ends of the code.

There may well be a variation in how the reference is applied since 51 could refer to the book of revelations or Psalm 51 . I am looking at the A called The Majescule A which looks to belong to several alphabets and has a peculiar tail at the top left of the letter and a central support leg to the cross piece …
Could this indicate a place... Augsberg possibly.

I recall Michael(RIP) in one of his amazing epic threads discussing the Augsberg Halbard pole arms with the Augsberg letter in Latten style on the blade in the form term being expressed here...of a Majescule A. Could this be indicating that since A is at both ends of the script that it forms a sort of bracket around the biblical term being expressed. Thus underwriting the blessing as having been carried out at Augsberg? Thus so far I have a hypothesis as follows...Benedictus style blessings often focussed on a psalm thus I lean toward that possibility~

At Augsberg Psalm 51(or the book of Revelations) Dominus Deus At Augsberg.

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Old 11th November 2018, 09:53 AM   #89
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The Ethnographics of this case are huge! Not only is the hilt rare in the case of the other sword See Post 44.....but on The Odd Sword the incredible decorative form on the added pommel illustrating the Solomon style star geometry and Talismanic gridded majic square with Arabic numerals seemingly all 5s …
I have previously described figure 5 geometry as representing Hand of Fatima daughter of The Prophet (pboh) . In addition there is a tang extension although it looks like this part snapped off another sword type...The only weapon it could have come off is The Omani Dancer. The decorative devices are so rare that no one has seen such a decoration before.

I also show how the fixing is made in a previous post to thread See post 23.


Please note that blade and hilt and pommel are made as one with the blade on dancing swords so that in the case of a hilt and or hilt extension
there would be no rivets or brazing together of hilt parts unless the hilt was a replacement of some sort... In this case two parts ...Half a hilt with two rivets shown and a complete Pommel with Tang extension in this case riveted . See pictures below.
Attached Images
      

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Old 12th November 2018, 08:35 PM   #90
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Despite probable modern mounting and assembly, many composite swords offer great opportunities in evaluating the components used, often having their own genuine antiquity. The remounting of old and heirloom blades is actually very common in ethnographic spheres.

In the case of the 'odd' sword posted in the OP of over three years ago, the blade, as well discussed, appears European and with a curious inscription of letters which may be a combination of symbols and letters or perhaps with acrostic value in some degree.

It seems well determined that the blade has had an extension added to move back the cubed pommel to allow for the long grip of the Omani sayf. While these long open hilts became popularized during the al Busayyidi dynasty of Oman in the early 19th c. , it appears that there were many of this form made for ceremonial events. Contemporary to these it would seem that this style hilt appealed to status oriented figures such as merchants and distinguished officials, and they may have had European trade blades (readily available in their entrepots) mounted accordingly.

Although it is believed that this blade on the sword discussed as well as on the second (in sayf Yemani mounts) with 'SVARES' inscription, are from a European source in recent time, this only negates the importance of the possible Portuguese attribution. As far as thier own antiquity as blades of probably 17th c. , they are very worthy of discussion on their own merit. so keying them to Portuguese presence in Oman in these early times need not be a consideration for provenance of the blades.

Returning to the sword of the OP, the character of the pommel is most interesting, and appears to have motif completely uncharacteristic of pommels, despite occasional occurrences on blades.

The 'magic square' (often termed 'buduh' but in Arabic 'wafq') is a device which far predates Islam, but was filtered from China via India into early use in Arabia. As far as recorded use I could only locate the 10th c use as described by Jabir ibn Hayyan (Geber) but I am admittedly not well versed in such matters. The point is that this, as described by Ibrahiim, is most certainly a talismanic device well known on Islamic swords.

The six point star, is not seen in this parlance as Jewish (of course) nor as some rendition of the well known proof mark surround seen on Wilkinson swords c. 1860s.....but as Norman noted earlier, a symbol of strength with two joined triangles. This was used in early times in various cultures but was known in Islam as well.

The cubed pommel is characteristic of the early Omani sayf with long open hilt of the earliest period of the reign of Saiid bin Sultan (1804-1856) and on the 'dance' versions which typically had the aperture in the pommel. This was presumably for a wrist lanyard or festoon, and not typically seen on the more embellished examples for dignitary or status oriented wear.

It would be a most 'odd' incongruence, actually paradox, to have a pommel with Islamic talismanic virtues joined to a European blade carrying what may be Christian invocations. Obviously none of that has yet been determined, but the possibilities are most interesting.

In the blade inscription one of the key elements is the majescule A which is apparently at both ends of the number/letters. Here I would note that these elaborate 'A' characters which look like a M because of the center drop down forming a lozenge in the center, were used in numerous instances besides Augsburg and by various makers in Spain and others.
This suggests that the 'A' is likely a symbolic device in my opinion, but at this point its meaning unknown.

Attached is an example in 'latten' (inlaid gold metal).
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Last edited by Jim McDougall : 13th November 2018 at 09:17 AM.
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