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Old 29th July 2015, 06:04 PM   #31
Jim McDougall
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Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.
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Old 30th July 2015, 03:21 PM   #32
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My Latin is a bit rusty (to say the least ), but the letters U and V being interchangeable, the inscription could be read as A DIVUM, which can be translated as FROM GOD
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Old 30th July 2015, 04:11 PM   #33
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What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through
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Old 30th July 2015, 04:54 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through


Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce! But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.
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Old 30th July 2015, 05:05 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas
Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce!...

Good point!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas
...But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.

Yes and no ... as also each of the other letters seems to belong to a different style.
Pity that the pictures quality is so limited .
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Old 30th July 2015, 05:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Good point!



Pity that the pictures quality is so limited .


Agreed!
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Old 30th July 2015, 05:51 PM   #37
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I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.


Nothing unusual about it? I think it is extremely unusual. The tang extension, the blade, the pommel decoration, the blade marks. In fact it is the most unusual sword I have ever seen. I doubt you know the owner but... my suspicion is that this has been sourced out of the situation in Mutrah. The claim was that this was purchased in Yemen. It may well have been and in addition it may have been altered in Mutrah. It looks Portuguese.

There are trade blades from 1970 in the world sword system which were instigated through Mutrah from Ethiopia via Sanaa...til today ~ This could be from the same source.

The straight Omani dancing bladed sword or Sayf(Saif) (not to be confused with the Old Omani Battle Sword we are discussing here) which was inspired by Said the Great in the early part of the 19th Century is essentially hugely flexible and homegrown so far as I can see; purely in Oman. It is a dancing sword/and to hail the ruler/pageantry item/sword only. Many thousand straight blades have been through the hands of the Mutrah workshops in the past 45 years and have totally confused and conned most of the international sword collectors serious and incidental... Said the Great of old would probably be laughing about that...as we do here in Oman now.

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Old 31st July 2015, 04:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Nothing unusual about it? I think it is extremely unusual. The tang extension, the blade, the pommel decoration, the blade marks. In fact it is the most unusual sword I have ever seen. I doubt you know the owner but... my suspicion is that this has been sourced out of the situation in Mutrah. The claim was that this was purchased in Yemen. It may well have been and in addition it may have been altered in Mutrah. It looks Portuguese.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


The tang extension is an existing method for rehilting blades. The inscriptions exist on European blades which also exist in the region which part of is Oman. The sword is in the UAE as far as I know, it belongs to a prominent collection and you posted before the screenshots from the owner's instagram account. Unless sold to Oman recently. :-)
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:55 AM   #40
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Default Buyers Beware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
The tang extension is an existing method for rehilting blades. The inscriptions exist on European blades which also exist in the region which part of is Oman. The sword is in the UAE as far as I know, it belongs to a prominent collection and you posted before the screenshots from the owner's instagram account. Unless sold to Oman recently. :-)


Correct about the rehilting proceedure in the specific part of Mutrah I am indicating...but you miss an important issue...These swords only began to enter the market in 1970. Before that there was no such trade. ...These Ethiopian blades have been filtered into the Mutrah SOUK/purchased from Sanaa ...rehilted to look Omani...though some have been sold on as is...and banged out to unsuspecting tourists and collectors alike.

I have one which has a very flexible blade ...equally as bendy as an Omani blade but its inscribed from hilt to tip in Ethiopian script...You are well aware that Mutrah is playing this game ... so is Forum ... Here Maude "Theres a sword ere he says is his uncles and its 1000 years old...Yes Dear he takes Visa !!...

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Old 31st July 2015, 05:07 AM   #41
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Thanks to those who have had a go at the script so far....For anyone looking at the script it appears as A 5 1 U U A The initial and final letters are the same and seem to be in A form or rather as crown shapes. The inverted G or 5 without its top...has a meaning and a number in Hebrew ...see previous post # 29...As has the 1 and the U U and finally another A.

I suspect Hebrew as the Latin and Cyrillic do not correspond....anyone understand Hebrew please?

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Old 31st July 2015, 05:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Correct about the rehilting proceedure in the specific part of Mutrah I am indicating...but you miss an important issue...These swords only began to enter the market in 1970. Before that there was no such trade. ...These Ethiopian blades have been filtered into the Mutrah SOUK/purchased from Sanaa ...rehilted to look Omani...though some have been sold on as is...and banged out to unsuspecting tourists and collectors alike.

I have one which has a very flexible blade ...equally as bendy as an Omani blade but its inscribed from hilt to tip in Ethiopian script...You are well aware that Mutrah is playing this game ... so is Forum ... Here Maude "Theres a sword ere he says is his uncles and its 1000 years old...Yes Dear he takes Visa !!...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Well aware of your hypothesis. Sadly you provided zero conclusive proof to make it even half believable.

And this is not an Ethiopian blade as Ethiopia mainly imported blades. The Ethiopians do not round the tip, but I guess you'll claim that is a Mutrah edition? makes no sense but if you insist, keep on believing that :-) anyways, will post some clearer photos from the owner's page. Atleast some reference is due.
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Old 31st July 2015, 05:21 AM   #43
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Hope these are clear enough.
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Old 31st July 2015, 05:31 AM   #44
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Also belonging to the same owner. He sent me these photos in February where I and Iain tried along with others to decipher the script.

Although this iron hilted sword has new dress (silver hilt covering) the iron hilt is still shown especially the quillons and the dome shaped pommel. Also since this is a 'battle' sword (also worn in ceremonial purposes by the Omani sultan himself - not this particular example but a famous photo of young Sultan Qaboos shows him wielding a similar sword gold fitted) has a European blade similar in some ways to the sword published before. Proving how well the practice of using European blades dates far in time. But I suppose this is also a Mutrah fake made in the surprisingly precise date of 1970.

(I await how the iron hilt will be ignored and the obviously modern edition used as some 'evidence' that this sword is new)
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Old 31st July 2015, 05:51 AM   #45
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Default Never lose track of the fact that Mutrah is a hotbed of faked swords !

Thank you for the excellent pictures ... I had not seen these before...nor do I have permission to show the owner details so ...You may have but he otherwise may not like it...Consider removing his photo please. Oh and I am aware of the way blades entered and exited the Ethiopian region..yes! from Europe thence to Sanaa in Yemen and since 1970 to Muscat/Mutrah and Salalah. Mutrah are quite capable of making round square or any other shapes at the swords tip...They have a workshops expert at that sort of engineering.

On a point of order ...did I ever say that Omani Battle Swords never had other blades?...I certainly believe Omani dancing sword blades were all home grown...but the Sayf Yamaani...? I dont think I have insisted upon that accreditation ...I will check my thread...and having done so No I have never said that because firstly; I have never before seen a European blade fitted to the Sayf Yamaani hilt . Secondly; I have still not pinpointed the origin of manufacture if in fact there is one place.. Perhaps it is in the Yemen? Hadramaut? Thus Sayf Yamaani...or is that just the name? It may have been made in a number of places some of which may be in Oman like Nizwa?? Certainly the original wing shaped cross section style appears to be its birthright...and copied therafter. There is supposed to be a Portuguese bladed weapon on a Sayf Yamaani rig in a museum in Muscat but Mutrah sold them that...they say... so.... I have never seen a European blade on a Sayf Yamaani until today though that is hugely suspect since that one you show, I believe, is from Mutrah in the early days around 1970.

You show a most interesting blade face with the letters SVARES on it... I dont have any idea what that is but clearly it appears to be of European make...Solingen? at a guess. It is not an Arabian weapon but looks Portuguese? thus its origin / where it was obtained I know not... perhaps you can fill in the blanks?

What is interesting is the peculiar play on the other face of the pommel which implies in my view a talismanic aspect ...Have you any idea what that may be?

The other inscription ...Is that on the reverse of the SVARES blade? ... It looks Latin.

The other sword is an Omani Old Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani with a strange hilt made in an attempt to qualify it as a Royal Omani Hilt but with an unusual silver woven overgrip and a non Omani blade. This also looks European possibly German/Portuguese as well.

The origin of species of the Sayf Yamaani sword goes back 1000 years and more... I may be guilty of over defending that form though as I say there is no proof that other blades somehow became inserted except as I have indicated since 1970...by the Mutrah people.

The one you show is a complete rejigged hilt, hilt cover, blade and all including fine work in the scabbard etc ...Its a pity really since the blade is exceptional, old and European. Its a Mutrah Special!!

The Sayf Yamaani sword you mention belonging to the Ruler indeed has gold mounts and may be seen at my thread on this weapon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sayf+yamaani at #69.


Conclusion ~ It may now be shown that in conclusion;

1. The destination/rejigging of the sword at #1 was probably to be as a lookalike Omani dancing sword with extended tang on an European blade however purchased before that work was completed..Pure Mutrah done recently~ Fake.

2. By reverse engineering the sword that looks like an Omani Battle Sword; it can be seen as a European blade refitted with a spare Omani Battle Sword Hilt and Pommel, Grip in Woven Silver and accompanying Scabbard in the Omani Style. Pure Mutrah. 1970 or later ~ Fake.

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Old 31st July 2015, 01:02 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.



Salaams Jim and thank you for the encouraging words. I have examined these peculiar capital letters and traced some to southern Italian regions such as Messapic and Old Church Slavonic in particular the A shape with the small vee shaped crossbar and a slight comma diving off to the left side top.

I have analysed about 50 separate language forms but am little closer to the full picture though I feel it is in the general area Hebrew, Latin, Greek..I am pretty well convinced it is Hebrew of the special form shown at ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_script but I cannot find the special A in this form.... could it be mixed?

Where does the special A form come from??; Old Church Slavonic ....From Wikepedia Quote "Old Church Slavonic (pronunciation: /ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ sləˈvɒnɪk/, /-slćˈ-/),[2] also known as Old Church Slavic (/ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ ˈslaːvɪk/;[2] often abbreviated to OCS; self-name словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ), was the first Slavic literary language.

The 9th-century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianisation of the Slavic peoples.[3] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greece).

It played an important role in the history of the Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, and some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches use this later Church Slavonic as a liturgical language to this day. As the oldest attested Slavic language, OCS provides important evidence for the features of Proto-Slavic, the reconstructed common ancestor of all Slavic languages".Unquote.

Are they linked...? It may be noted that The Second Book of Enoch was preserved in Old Church Slavonic, although the original most certainly had been Greek or even Hebrew or Aramaic.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 31st July 2015, 03:04 PM   #47
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Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.
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Old 31st July 2015, 03:15 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.



I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1. The Pure Mutrah. 1970 or later ~ Fake.

I assume the one you mean is inscribed in a Latin format whilst I believe the #1 weapon is in some other language which I suspect is Hebrew ...or possibly OCS.
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Old 31st July 2015, 03:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1.


Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:02 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.



Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:15 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...


The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:32 PM   #52
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One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere.
The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it.
Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank.


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Old 31st July 2015, 05:24 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.



It is quite obviously a nice old European Blade. It was, however, imported after 1970 and joined to an equally nice Omani Battle Sword Hilt (then given the Royal Hilt treatment)...The hilt probably originally also quite old and I would reasonably guess about 200/250 years ....going by the look of the pommel...but it wouldn't matter if the hilt was 100 or 1,000 years old since they were stuck together in about 1970....in Mutrah. It is therefor what? An Omani Battle Sword?... I don't think so...Nice blade or not, the sword is a fake.
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Old 31st July 2015, 06:52 PM   #54
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Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic.

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Old 31st July 2015, 07:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.


I believe various objections were made in the topic that got locked. And I did as well in this one. Unless you consider repetition to be a 'strong' argument then case is closed. But let me restate what Ibrahim considers to be the reason why these are fakes;

1- Omanis do not use European trade blades (unlike the whole world and existing evidence that they did)

2- Therefore all Omani swords with European blades are automatically deemed as fakes. Even when there is no evidence to that.

---

The Ethiopian swords drowning the Arab world from Yemen all the way to Syria (pre-mess) are well known, and yes, there are Arab craftsmen who used the fine trade blades on Ethiopian swords to make new swords. This is seen in Oman (on swords with NEW dress) and Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well. Now this does not mean that every single European blade made it to the region through Ethiopia and 1970 that Ibrahim keeps repeating. There is evidence in Museums and collections abroad and within the region of such blades existing in the region for quite a long time.

Both blades published here are not of the type that is commonly find on Ethiopian swords, and the rounded tip on the first shows elements that are Omani rather than Ethiopian. We all know the tourist sword industry, I see no reason why they would round the tip, antique the blade to perfection to sell to tourists? makes no sense at all. All that added to the patina, the proper quality old riveting on the hilt tang compared to swords shared by Ibrahim with crappy welding.

Also, by all means visit Oman and visit Mutrah, I've been there and the demand for older European blades like this is high and seen as part of the sword culture there. Not Ethiopian swords made by Wilkinson, but Portuguese blades and older German ones. There are rehilts in Mutrah, and those are pointed out as so. It also happens that all the swords with proper blades were in private collections, while the rehilts (obviously so to collectors) are offered for sale.

But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.
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Old 31st July 2015, 11:03 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. alnakkas
But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.


Gentlemen, any further sarcasm or baiting by anyone will be dealt with quickly and harshly. You have been warned.

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Old 1st August 2015, 10:44 AM   #57
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The Inscription on # 1.

I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi...habetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46.

I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/haber...?ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for.

The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script.

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Old 1st August 2015, 12:24 PM   #58
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It may mean absolutely nothing at all!!

From ananael@blogspot.com I QUOTE" Two swords bearing esoteric inscriptions are now on display at the Guildhall Museum in Boston, UK. They date from the 13th or 14th century and were discovered together at the bottom of the Witham River. So far the inscriptions have defied translation, though they may very well consist of magical formulas rather than words from any particular language. The use of such formulas was a common practice in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The famous phrase SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS, for example, does contain words that can be translated from Latin, but its function is more likely linked to that of the 5x5 magic square of Mars which its structure resembles.

Officials at the Guildhall say the best guess is that the weapons were dressed in such a fashion to endow them with special magical properties such as enabling their owners to vanquish any foe and endow their swords with the life force energy of their opponents.It is probable that the "magical" inscriptions were not visible when the swords were made and that only corrosion and decay of the outer surfaces over the centuries has now allowed their secrets to be revealed.

Mystery also surrounds their discovery close together at the bottom of the river near Bardney. One theory is that they may have been votive offerings to please the gods and so deliberately placed in the waters. At that time the Witham was the "motorway" of the day between Boston and Lincoln so the swords' owners may have been from this area and would certainly have been familiar with it. The swords are iron double-edged with a groove running down the greater part of the blade.

One has straight hand guard of circular section and a wheel pommel. The inscription on this one reads: '+SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+'.


The + probably represents the sign of the cross, as is commonly found on devices constructed by Christian magicians. The first part of the phrase, SNEXORENEXORENEXOR could be a gloss for SNEXORE NEXORE NEXOR, a reduction formula in which each subsequent word is shortened by a letter. ABRACADABRA can be written this way as a triangle in which each word loses one letter from the line above it. The reduction of the root word, in this case SNEXORE, served to concentrate its power and essence. The meaning of the keyword itself, though, could be just about anything, from poorly copied Greek or Hebrew from one of the old grimoires to a notariquon (or acronym) encoding some magical phrase or text".UNQUOTE.

WHILST READERS MAY TEND TO DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE ABOVE HYPOTHESIS ..P[ERSONALLY i AM UNSURE OF THE IDEA THAT SWORDS WERE MADE WITH A HIDDEN TEXT ON THE BLADE WHICH APPEARED AFTER THE SWORD HAD CORRODED...NO I CANT QUITE SEE THAT...HOWEVER THE OTHER GENERAL IDEAS ARE INTERESTING ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 1st August 2015, 12:27 PM   #59
ariel
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There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.
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Old 1st August 2015, 01:28 PM   #60
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Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

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