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Old 29th May 2015, 03:29 AM   #31
Oliver Pinchot
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Gentlemen,

The easiest way to determine the age of the stock is to loosed the screws
that hold the lock, remove it and consider the aperture which holds it. Generally speaking, if the wood is very fresh, shows recent chisel and gouge marks and is unstained (there will be powder, grease and other stains as well as some degree of rubbing if it has seen much use) it probably is not very old. Neither the stock nor the brass mounts show much wear, and as everyone agrees, the barrel is clearly older.

Age is, however, relative. The question is, was this weapon made for use, or for tourist consumption. Flint and percussion weapons were used in a variety of locales well into the 20th century, in fact the Afghans used them against the Soviets when necessary as recently as a quarter-century ago.
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Old 29th May 2015, 05:33 AM   #32
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANDOOK
KUBUR HAVE COPIED YOUR PICTURE,PLEASE OBSERVE THE GUY ON RIGHT HAND SIDE ,HE HAS QUIET A SIMILAR JEZAIL WITH THE THICK HUGE BARREL??WHAT DO YOU THINK?



Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 29th May 2015, 11:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Gentlemen,

The easiest way to determine the age of the stock is to loosed the screws
that hold the lock, remove it and consider the aperture which holds it. Generally speaking, if the wood is very fresh, shows recent chisel and gouge marks and is unstained (there will be powder, grease and other stains as well as some degree of rubbing if it has seen much use) it probably is not very old. Neither the stock nor the brass mounts show much wear, and as everyone agrees, the barrel is clearly older.

Age is, however, relative. The question is, was this weapon made for use, or for tourist consumption. Flint and percussion weapons were used in a variety of locales well into the 20th century, in fact the Afghans used them against the Soviets when necessary as recently as a quarter-century ago.

Thanks oliver for the information,cheers
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Old 29th May 2015, 11:10 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

CHEERS IBRAHIIM,CHEERS
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Old 29th May 2015, 08:18 PM   #35
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Salaams Ibrahiim, The TEE shaped tool you refer to is a flint knapping hammer, used for shaping flints to fit the jaws on the cock.
Stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 30th May 2015, 09:47 AM   #36
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THANKS STU FOR THE VALUABLE INFORMATION ,CHEERS
I BOUGHT THIS GUN FOR ITS UNIQUE SHAPE,DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT,ITS VERY UNIQUE IN ITS OWN WAY
HAPPY FOR ALL THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE COMMENTS ,IT ADDS TO MY KNOWLDGE
REGARDS RAJESH
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Old 31st May 2015, 06:25 AM   #37
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Default TEE SHAPED COMBINATION TOOL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Salaams Ibrahiim, The TEE shaped tool you refer to is a flint knapping hammer, used for shaping flints to fit the jaws on the cock.
Stu



Salaams Khanjar1, Yes indeed ...This handy tool also appears in Oman and is the same tee shape comprising hammer head spike and screwdriver. The one at reference below has a pricker device as well.

It derives from the Spanish/Portuguese item described by Thomas del Mar at an old auction 2 years ago on~

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalog...13/page005.html as

Quote"A SPANISH COMBINATION TOOL (ESLABÓN) SIGNED CLEMENE D YSLA EN ESPINOSA, 18TH CENTURYwith moulded shank, pierced at the base, with screw driver terminal (one small chip), the head signed and with knapping and hammer terminals, complete with its pricker (a contemporary repair)
9.3cm; 3 5/8in high

For a discussion of Spanish firearms accessories see J. Lavin 1965, pp. 212-213." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 08:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Translates to { I presume. If I may be so presumptuous } , it normal in some parts of the modern commercial market for these to be old barrels & locks to be installed in brand new woodwork & brass work to relieve collectors of there hard earned {or inherited...} money.

Unless sold as modern rebuild using old barrel & lock...{ the wood worm & damp has eaten the stock while it was left rotting in a palace or armoury cellar for 150 years...}

Namaste Ibrahim! ! Its interesting you ay these wall guns were used in the early 20th century? What references are there for the 20th century use?

spiral




Salaams spiral, I aim off somewhat from the mid 19th C use of such weapons and arrived at a slightly later date...If I am more precise it may be seen as used up to the mid 19th though I cannot be absolutely certain...the following may be a closer spot date for its latest use...though no doubt some were used later and perhaps in the provinces by locals etc...That is why I give the mid 19C a little air...and arrived at what I consider as a reasonable early 20th C final resting place ..

Quote"Summary:
Indian matchlock musket or Toradar.

One of a collection of weapons seized from mutineers during the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), and subsequently donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India.
Description:
Cal. .625 in., smooth bore barrel 1054 mm long, ornamental grooves.

Pan on right hand side, V notch rear sight.

Fully stocked, secured to barrel by 5 bands, ramrod missing, iron trigger & 2 sling swivels. Straight stock with ornamental brass mounts, serpentine protrudes from piece of shaped bone attached to top of stock.
Statement Of Significance:
This is one of 287 weapons and associated items from the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India. The weapons had been seized from the Indian mutineers by British troops during the course of the mutiny.

The donation was in response to a suggestion by Redmond Barry, Chairman of Trustees, that a letter be sent to Sir Henry Barkly, Governor of Victoria, requesting him to write to the Governor-General of India. The letter to Barkly, dated 9 May 1859, noted that 'such objects placed in the Museum attached to the Library would afford interesting illustration of oriental national customs and peculiarities.'

The weapons were also war booty, signifying the relief of Victorians that their fellow colonists in India were once more safe. Many Victorian colonists (including Barry) had relatives in the British army and administration in India, had anxiously followed the bulletins of the Indian Mutiny in the newspapers, and raised funds locally to aid the cause. Some of the weapons were displayed in the main stairwell of the Library, alongside Australian Aboriginal weapons. Here they became symbols of the defeat of local peoples as the British Empire expanded around the globe.

The collection was subsequently transferred to the National Gallery of Victoria, and thence in parts to the Industrial & Technological Museum during the early decades of the twentieth century. At each stage in its history, the collection has been gradually reduced in size through items being presented or disposed of.
Acquisition Information:
Donation & Subsequent Transfer from National Gallery of Victoria (NGV), 1860
Discipline: Technology
Dimensions: 155.5 cm (Length)"Unquote.

It may be worth considering that in the 2nd Afghan war 1878 ...1880 the Afghan style of Torador was used against the British as illustrated on http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collect...acc=1966-10-9-1

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 2nd June 2015 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2015, 08:43 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams spiral, I aim off somewhat from the mid 19th C use of such weapons and arrived at a slightly later date...If I am more precise it may be seen as used up to the mid 19th though I cannot be absolutely certain...the following may be a closer spot date for its latest use...though no doubt some were used later and perhaps in the provinces by locals etc...That is why I give the mid 19C a little air...and arrived at what I consider as a reasonable early 20th C final resting place ..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Greetings Ibahiim!.

Thank you.... I did wonder!

Spiral
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Old 2nd June 2015, 08:51 AM   #40
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Default 20th c use of flintlock documented.....

This however confirms that such old guns are still used to this day. A You Tube link from one of Michael Palins travel docos from the BBC. Not only a modern day use of a flintlock, but also using home made powder. Rather him than me I think!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua131xJiMKU
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Old 2nd June 2015, 09:08 AM   #41
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Yep! It's what I said since the beginning...
When I was in Pakistan "few" years ago, the security guard in front of our hotel had...a blunderbuss!!
It's not a joke!
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Old 2nd June 2015, 07:45 PM   #42
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Very interesting guys,I have evidence of ethnic Brown bess use in the last 10 years. {During Nepals civil war.} But is that relevant?

The point {I thought} was rather more about monster jezail fort guns in use? As per the gun featured? I enjoy thread veer onto other subjects, {AKA any flintlock or black powder using guns, elsewhere...} But perhaps such veers should be signposted or at least an acknowledgment that random statements made about 20th century use are not neccasarily relevant to Afghani/Indian. Pakistani oe Baluchistan wall guns... {Not to even mention the Ottaman empire! }

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Old 2nd June 2015, 08:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Very interesting guys,I have evidence of ethnic Brown bess use in the last 10 years. {During Nepals civil war.} But is that relevant?

The point {I thought} was rather more about monster jezail fort guns in use? As per the gun featured? I enjoy thread veer onto other subjects, {AKA any flintlock or black powder using guns, elsewhere...} But perhaps such veers should be signposted or at least an acknowledgment that random statements made about 20th century use are not neccasarily relevant to Afghani/Indian. Pakistani oe Baluchistan wall guns... {Not to even mention the Ottaman empire! }

spiral

There was no intention to "veer" the thread on the Sindi, simply to point out that the use of this TYPE of weapon is/has been used up to the modern day......
Stu
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Old 2nd June 2015, 09:12 PM   #44
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No problem Stu, I like thread veer!

But I would never argue flintlocks weren't in use recently....

Just wall guns...

Not very good pics, I have better somewhere, but here some Maoist rebel militia in Nepal about 2004, with Flintlocks.

They run the country now.... {probably not the featured girls though...}

spiral
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Old 2nd June 2015, 11:25 PM   #45
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Getting back to wall guns..........I would rather doubt their use from WALLS in this day of laser guided bombs! Not for one moment suggesting that they are not being used, but just not to defend a walled village/town.

RAJESH......you need to post a pic of the 6ft 5" Torador you have in your collection....or open a new thread featuring it.

A well known U S auction site had a 7ft Torador listed recently......

Stu
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Old 4th June 2015, 01:21 PM   #46
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Toradors come in all sorts of quality; This one from http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/17487 (The Victoria and Albert Museum)
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Old 4th June 2015, 01:42 PM   #47
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It's probably not an original, look the wood work is brand new...
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Old 4th June 2015, 06:24 PM   #48
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That's is a beuty!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
It's probably not an original, look the wood work is brand new...


Some newbie collectors, who are also not trained cabinet makers would think that!

I love it when people try for sarcasm but miss the irony of there own statements!

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Old 4th June 2015, 06:47 PM   #49
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I love it when we're all nice to each other ........ ahem .
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Old 4th June 2015, 07:38 PM   #50
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Me to Rick... some comments & the attitude that goes with them deserve a concise reply though...
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Old 4th June 2015, 07:53 PM   #51
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To Rick, have a look at the thread since the beginning, you will see some immature behaviour. It's the reason why I prefer to laugh and to respect the rules of the forum!
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Old 4th June 2015, 08:00 PM   #52
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THATS GOOD OBSERVATION KUBUR AND RICK,I FEEL THE SAME,ANY WAYS EVERY ONE IS DIFFERENT,CHEERS
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Old 4th June 2015, 08:35 PM   #53
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It is a shame that people who can not recognise recent low quality work... {just look at those brass edges!.} Get so upset at those who point out that it is.{ After ther declartation & wows! about the mostly brand new piece of course...}


Never mind though, at least there are many knowledge collectors on this forum...

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Old 6th June 2015, 04:49 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
This however confirms that such old guns are still used to this day. A You Tube link from one of Michael Palins travel docos from the BBC. Not only a modern day use of a flintlock, but also using home made powder. Rather him than me I think!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua131xJiMKU

Hi Stu.
LOL! Great vidio!!! You only stand next to a flintlock pan going off - once. And you remember. LOL I've probably been "splattered" two dozen times over the years. LOL
It's remarkable how late flintlocks continue to be used. Notice he had trouble getting the gun to go off. The home made black powder was probably very crude, which caused him to over-charge the pan. Or maybe a dull flint. Which would add to my theory of why Ethno flintlocks in all forms had such extra strong mainsprings compared to their European counterparts. The flint in that region of the world was simply not the quality of the Black English flint, or the French Amber flint.
Rick.
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Old 8th June 2015, 09:46 PM   #55
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CAMEL GUARD JAIPUR,INDIA
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:10 PM   #56
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Ok let me add few more Qajar and Mughal
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Old 8th June 2015, 11:25 PM   #57
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NICE PICTURES HAVE ADDED THEM TO MY ALBUM,CHEERS
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Old 9th June 2015, 01:33 AM   #58
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No matter what, you are ready to shoot yourself some elephants:-)
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Old 13th December 2016, 09:42 AM   #59
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A SIMILAR BARREL LIKE THE ONE I HAVE ,THIS SOLD ON INVALUABLE,PICTURES I HAVE ADDED,SAME TIGER TYPE /KIND TIPPUS FAV.THE ONE HERE IS ON A TORADOR.
WHAT DO U THINK??????
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