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Old 19th December 2014, 02:56 PM   #1
Morten
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Default Suhl Wheellock carbin

I have a Suhl Wheellock carbin, and I wonder if someone can help me with some information about this. When I bought it, it was informed that it was produced around 1630, but it is marked 1592 on the top of the barrel. The stock has a lot of inlays, I guess this is done later. The barrel har some Suhl markings, and the inside of the lock is marked FR over a wheel or something.
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Old 20th December 2014, 11:05 AM   #2
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Welcome to the forum, Morten .
Nice example you have there.
Let's see what the connoisseurs have to say about it.
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Old 21st December 2014, 04:25 PM   #3
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Thanks, I hope someone have som information about this
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:52 PM   #4
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Hi Morten,


And welcome here.

I can defintely tell you every little detail about your carbine.

1. It was manufactured in Suhl after the Thirty Years War (1618-1648), in the 1660's, as a plain undecorated military saddle carbine
.

2. The date 1592 is spurious and a later addition, and so are all the bone inlays in the stock.

3. The original riding bar which attached the carbine safley to the saddle by a leather sling is missing from the opposite side of the lock; formerly, it was fixed by one of the of the sidenails and a forward screw also acting as a transversal pin for the stock and barrel;

Attached, from top, are images of both earlier and later Suhl saddle carbines:

- the forerunner types of your model, from the 1630's, still featuring the sided, edged and figured shape of the butt stock, together with the latest type of wheellock carbines ever made, ca. 1690-1700; note the difference in the butt stocks.

- military wheellock and matchlock muskets showing the stylistic development from ca. 1645 to ca. 1700, the Early Baroque period that followed the Renaissance; note the change of style of the stocks; by ca. 1660, they were shaped exactly like that of your item in discussion reflecting the new sense of style, resulting in bellied and rounded butt stocks;
all guns in The Michael Trömner Collection;

- a military saddle carbine of ca. 1660;

- military saddle carbines of ca. 1670-90, with the characteristic paddle shaped butt stock; note the side bar with the ring for a leather sling.

The stocks of the later guns usually are of beechwood.


Best,
Michael

Photos copyrighted by Thomas Del Mar Ltd., by Armin König, by the Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin and by the author.


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Last edited by Matchlock : 22nd December 2014 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:59 PM   #5
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I once owned a very similar example, yours has more stamps on it though.
My suhl carbine, also inlaid with bone plaques was made for the saxony market or even the Polish nobility. I would date this carbine to 1640-1650s.
I couldn't find the date of 1592 on the barrel in your pictures. The lettering ISE (?) is most likely what you meant?

The pin holding the trigger could be a replacement.

Still a nice gun on its own right.
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:29 PM   #6
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Thanks for information Michael, I also thought that it was later than the markings. I cant see any of your picyures.
Marcus, it's 1592 no letters there only numbers.
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:35 PM   #7
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom


Thanks for that link, Marcus,

I was just busy searching but you were way too fast for an old man like me ...

Best,
Michl
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:43 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=Morten]Thanks for information Michael, I also thought that it was later than the markings. I cant see any of your picyures.

I was still busy searching my archives for them; a profound reply is bound to take some time.

m
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Old 21st December 2014, 07:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
,
I couldn't find the date of 1592 on the barrel in your pictures.
I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl
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Old 21st December 2014, 07:15 PM   #11
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Here are two pictures depicting wheellocks of the 1660's being fired: on top the author firing an original combined wheellock and matchlock musket almost 2o years ago, and a reenactor with his carbine modeled on an original.

Best,
Michael
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Old 21st December 2014, 08:20 PM   #12
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Hello,

may I ask when and why the brass and bone inlays added?

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 21st December 2014, 08:45 PM   #13
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Nice weapons Michael. I should probably start a new thread but I post it here, a frien of mine have wheellock carbine that someday I hope should be mine, but I don't know where it's produced so if someone also can tell me something about this I will be happy. It's not so good pictures of this but you can see the markings and the shape of the stock. It's also have a another shape on the barrel.
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Old 21st December 2014, 09:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I did some photoshopping on Morten's picture.

Best,
Michl



Thank you Michl, but i still have doubts about the interpretation of this mark. It might just be my perspective beeing a bit off.. but i can see either a crude 1592 (especially the 5 and 9 are vague) or ISE with the E not in good shape.
The question is if you should read this as other mark SUL? The SUL are stamped within a square and are raised, the ISE is in the same manner. 1592 would be stamped without a boarder/sqaure around it and stamped inwards.

I have no knowledge (beeing 0-5%) on how stamps where made in those days.. i do know it is more common for dates to be stamped inwards without a boarder to highlight them.
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?


Last edited by Marcus den toom : 21st December 2014 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
Thank you Michl, but i still have doubts about the interpretation of this mark. It might just be my perspective beeing a bit off.. but i can see either a crude 1592 (especially the 5 and 9 are vague) or ISE with the E not in good shape.
The question is if you should read this as other mark SUL? The SUL are stamped within a square and are raised, the ISE is in the same manner. 1592 would be stamped without a boarder/sqaure around it and stamped inwards.

I have no knowledge (beeing 0-5%) on how stamps where made in those days.. i do know it is more common for dates to be stamped inwards without a boarder to highlight them.
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?


Good morning, Marcus,

The thing about that spurious date 1591 is dead easy: it was done very dilettantely by some fool who neither knew what cyphers looked like 400 years ago nor could he strike them with a sure hand; all that obviously happened only in the 20th century.

Morten, leave that wheellock carbine of your friend's alone. It is complete rubbish: the lock, stock and trigger guard all are modern replicas ; such wheellocks were built in large numbers
in Spainfrom the 1970's-1980's:




One certain Spanish guy still produces them.

The barrel of the specimen on your photos is just some old flintlock barrel.


Best,
Michl

Last edited by Matchlock : 22nd December 2014 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello,

may I ask when and why the brass and bone inlays added?

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Those plain wheellock and matchlock guns soon became technically outdated by ca. 1700 and were replaced by flintlocks. The obsolete guns were sold off cheaply in large numbers by the city arsenals, and many noblemen bought them and had them "embellished" in late 16th c. style in Poland and Czechia; they then "decorated" their castles with that stuff that now looked much nicer hanging on the walls than it did before.
Such items, of course, are an absolute "no go" for any serious collector.

Best,
Michael
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Old 22nd December 2014, 05:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
Tomorrow there will be a good day to learn a new fact on firearms i feel... Michl, fire away

ps is that musket you fired/flashed by any chance the Montecuccoli?


No Marcus,

The gun I fired on that photo is my combined wheellock and matchlock musket, made in Suhl, and in large numbers, for Austria from the 1660's until ca. 1690.

Please see my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+Suhl+Austri a

It is #4 fr0m the right on the images of my chronological row of the development of muskets from ca. 1570 to ca. 1700, to the left of the Montecuccoli, and the one on top of the bottom atts. depicting it together with another specimen from the same series.


Best, Michl

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Last edited by Matchlock : 22nd December 2014 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 06:58 AM   #18
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Good morning and thanks again Michael, I will stay away from that one. I also have a wheellock pistol I meen should be from around the 1630's. It has no visible marks , but are marks with a flower and IR (støkel no.3556-3558) on the inside of the lock. It has spring loaded pan cover.
I can see that one of the musket you post a picture of has a similar shape of the lock.
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Old 22nd December 2014, 08:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Detlef,

Those plain wheellock and matchlock guns soon became technically outdated by ca. 1700 and were replaced by flintlocks. The obsolete guns were sold off cheaply in large numbers by the city arsenals, and many noblemen bought them and had them "embellished" in late 16th c. style in Poland and Czechia; they then "decorated" their castles with that stuff that now looked much nicer hanging on the walls than it did before.
Such items, of course, are an absolute "no go" for any serious collector.

Best,
Michael


Hi Michael,

thank you very much for the full description.

Best regards,
Detlef
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Old 22nd December 2014, 08:26 PM   #20
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What Fun! I learn something new every time I visit. I particularly look forward to MATCHLOCK'S input, and insight on these ancient weapons, but also appreciate the depth of knowledge of many of the members here. Thanks for the education, and fantastic photos... barry
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Old 23rd December 2014, 07:35 AM   #21
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Hi Barry,


Thank you so much for appreciating what I have been striving to achieve over the last 40 years!
It is responses like yours that make me feel that all the toil was worthwhile, and that at least part of my accumulated knowledge will survive and pass.
What is even more is to know that there are some folks out there to whom my work does count and that, in a way, a few people actually need me.
That is a huge reward indeed.

So here is to all of you:
Do not hesitate to address me on special topics and ask me questions. Call me out!


Best as ever,
and with at least some hope for the New Year,

Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
D-93326 Abensberg
Bavaria, Germany
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Old 23rd December 2014, 09:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morten
Good morning and thanks again Michael,
I also have a wheellock pistol I meen should be from around the 1630's. It has no visible marks , but are marks with a flower and IR (støkel no.3556-3558) on the inside of the lock. It has spring loaded pan cover.
I can see that one of the musket you post a picture of has a similar shape of the lock.


Hi Morten,

That wheellock saddle pistol of yours can be dated to ca. 1625-35, and the type of the lock with that bar fixing the wheel centered denotes that it was a very solid construction; I am convinced that it was produced in Suhl, and when you take out the barrel you should detect the Suhl hen and the letters SVL, most probably on the left side of the rear section of the barrel, which is covered by the forestock now.
That pistol survived the Thirty Years War and has doubtlessly seen various battles.
The ramrod does not belong; I will post samples what the original ramrod looked like.
Your pistol still features the longer form, so I dated it pre-1635; from the 1630's, most pistols were notably shorter.

The outline of the lock on your sample is much like the locks of the pair of - shorter! - pistols used by the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus
on the battlefield of Lützen in 1632; a musket ball blew him off his horse but he got killed by rapiers .

See attachments, including the perfect and firing copies of Gustavus Adolphus's pair of pistols wrought by Armin König


Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 23rd December 2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 10:43 AM   #23
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Military wheellock saddle pistols from the 1640's to ca. 1650, the later period of the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).
Note the Suhl marks on the rear left side of the barrel half covered by the stock, and the iron finials of the ramrods threaded for cleaning tools (scourer) or for a worm to remove a ball from the barrel.

Photos copyrighted by the author.
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Last edited by Matchlock : 23rd December 2014 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 11:46 AM   #24
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Two Dutch carbines, the one on top 1660's, the other ca. 1650-60, the characteristic belly butt stocks reflecting the early Baroque style.
Although both guns were made for horsemen, the peaceful period following the Thirty Years War allowed for some decoration done by carving and/or adding brass studs to the stock, even with military items.
m
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Old 23rd December 2014, 01:47 PM   #25
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Two carbines, the first a rare and earlier sample, 1630's-40, and made by Mathes Frosch, the barrel struck with his characteristic frog mark (Frosch is German for frog) and the Nürnberg city proof mark as a sign of top quality.
Frosch was active in Regensburg for years before moving north to Nürnberg.
The butt stock of this carbine is still figured and edged which accounts for the date assigned to this gun.
Note the saddle ring attached two the rear sidenail.

The second piece was also made in Bavaria, in the 1660's; the barrel is signed Georg Kalb. Its but stock is notably bellied. It was most probably for a sniper as the rifled barrel, set trigger and shape of the trigger guard indicate.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 01:49 PM   #26
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Hi Michael thanks for good information and some very good pictures, I spesially like the ones with with the horse.
I knew that the ramrod was not original but it was there when I bought it, and i I thought it looks better with this or without something.
You and all the others that use this forum must have a wonderful Christmas.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:31 PM   #27
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Hi Morten,

Your carbine definitely looks better with a ramrod than it would without; just replacing the horn tip by a threaded iron finial would add much to its authentic look .

Attached
find a documentation of three wheellock carbines with fully evolved paddle shaped buttstocks, 1660's-70, the last one dated 1670 on the barrel.

Best,
Michael
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Old 23rd December 2014, 05:03 PM   #28
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From ca. 1650 to 1700, the last one another sniper's carbine with set trigger, the belly butt stock not present any longer and featuring the earliest ring swivels , Sweden or Denmark, 1680's-1700.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 09:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Morten,

Your carbine definitely looks better with a ramrod than it would without; just replacing the horn tip by a threaded iron finial would add much to its authentic look .

Attached
find a documentation of three wheellock carbines with fully evolved paddle shaped buttstocks, 1660's-70, the last one dated 1670 on the barrel.

Best,
Michael

I mean the ramrod on my pistol, I wont replace the horn tip on the carbine, the way it is today is a part of the history of the weapon and it would'nt be right to change this.
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Old 24th December 2014, 10:32 AM   #30
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Hi Morten,


That, of couse, is an alternative sight of collecting: to leave the items just the way they were when they entered your collection.

I have always followed that policy myself but I basically acquire objects in perfect original condition.

Anyway, attached at bottom are photos of a Styrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket dated 1583, and retaining not just its original ramrod with threaded iron finial, still blued, but also the matching worm and scourer; they were stored in a compartment on the right side of the butt stock which, 400 years ago, was not a "patch" box:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...atchlock+musket


The only exception to my aforementioned rule of collectiong only complete objects was a Styrian matchlock musket of ca. 1645-50, which is preserved in literally "untouched" condition since those terminal days of the Thirty Years War.
It is wrought quite coarsely, with the iron parts all still in their primeval blued surface which has now turned brownish thanks to a heavy patina. The beechwood full stock was never even stained or varnished and therefore shows its untreated "white" surface now turned to a patinated gray.
The gun is in perfect complete state of preservation and working order but the ramrod is missing.
I just wiped all iron parts with an olive oil soaked cloth to stop and passivate new rust but did not add a replacement ramrod.

With its dark iron contrasting to the grayish white stock and the ramrod gone, it imports the raw cruelty of an ancient war right into our period of time and conveys a perfect testimony of the needs that so many battles raging all over Europe for 30 years must have brought along at its final stage, and for a long time to last even after is was over.

The bottom atts. depict the musket on its arrival from Sotheby's London, 12 Dec 2004, where I had won it bidding on the telephone 10 years ago; the relatively new rust partly covering the original blued or browned iron is clearly evident. Olive oil made it harmless and rendered the surfaces smooth.


Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 24th December 2014 at 04:38 PM.
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