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Old 23rd December 2010, 08:42 PM   #1
cornelistromp
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Default Dagger with gryphon head guillon terminals

Hi,
I am looking for picture of ballock type of dagger with gryphon cross terminals. Can anybody help?

Best regards,
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Old 3rd January 2011, 06:19 PM   #2
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similar to this one.
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Old 3rd January 2011, 07:33 PM   #3
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Hi Cornelis,

I regret not being able to offer the 'real thing' but hope that two similar, though heavily stylized, quillon finials on Landsknecht swords will provide a bit of additional backup information (the painting dated 1452, the sword ca. 1530).

Please cf. my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...30&page=1&pp=30

If my scanner were not on strike I would post very similar gryhon quillons from a (composite) Landsknecht sword illustrated in Heinz R. Uhlemann: Kostbare Blankwaffen aus dem Deutschen Klingenmuseum Solingen, 1968, p. 49.

Best,
Michael
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Old 3rd January 2011, 09:32 PM   #4
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Hi Michael,

thank you for your always valuable feedback.
it is always very nice to see arm details back in art and architecture.

re:the finals of the sword of Klemens Thasche of p.49 are those not horseheads i/o gryphons?

kind regards,
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Old 3rd January 2011, 09:50 PM   #5
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Hi Cornelis,

Thank you so much for your kind lines!

I surmised you owned that booklet.

Good question - I'm not sure. The style is grotesquely zoomorphic and characteristically Gothic anyway, just like the gargoyles on Gothic cathedrals. They were the nearest I could get to 'gryphon heads', so - sorry if they don't perfectly match.

Good night to the Netherlands and an obviously fine collection there,
Michael
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Old 4th January 2011, 12:34 AM   #6
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It is interesting how styles of beasties traverse the centuries. This one from the late 19th century but reminiscent of dirk quillion a century before that This one possibly arguable as the head of a porpoise and the ballock above quite canine.

Cheers

GC
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Old 4th January 2011, 07:25 AM   #7
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horsemouthswords.
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Old 4th January 2011, 07:08 PM   #8
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Superb,

And thank you for sharing those!

Best,
Michael
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Old 28th December 2011, 10:44 AM   #9
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here is a second example of a gryphon dagger outof the frits Phillips collection.
This dagger is clearly found in the soil, probably in the Netherlands, because Phillips collected mainly Dutch gothic antiques.
Those are the only 2 known to me, Iam still hoping for some additional examples.

best,
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Old 12th February 2013, 07:25 AM   #10
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analmost similar gryphon dagger from the weapon museum in brussels.
early 15th century inv h/519/VI8
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Old 12th February 2013, 03:57 PM   #11
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Jasper,

That is a lovely example shown in the last photos, and has to be very closely related to yours.
I am wondering if these are not wolf heads though, as I can see ears laid back against the neck....(I think!)
I will save these pictures. Thank you for posting them.

One of the first things that came to mind when I saw this post, was;
"I wonder if through travel, the Arabs came in contact with this style of quillon?...as it seems more than a little similar to the Pulwar/Pulouar"

Best,
Richard.
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Old 13th December 2013, 06:23 PM   #12
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two pics more, excavated gryphon from the met the other Rijksmuseum brussels
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Old 13th December 2013, 09:54 PM   #13
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Thank you Jasper for posting this! These stylized zoomorphic quillon terminals really do present an interesting case for influence and symbolic styling diffusion. These downturned quillons with such terminals do indeed seem to reflect similarities in a sense to the Nasrid hilt forms as well as to the makara/dragonheads of Ottoman and Indian subcontinent.

Great examples you have posted and good to see this thread back up
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Old 14th December 2013, 09:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Jasper for posting this! These stylized zoomorphic quillon terminals really do present an interesting case for influence and symbolic styling diffusion. These downturned quillons with such terminals do indeed seem to reflect similarities in a sense to the Nasrid hilt forms as well as to the makara/dragonheads of Ottoman and Indian subcontinent.

Great examples you have posted and good to see this thread back up



Hi Jim,

Always very nice to hear from you.

Indeed, these terminals come in different cultures on daggers, usually of later period than the dagger under discussion (1425). A beautiful example from the same period is a parry block made ​​of jade from Uzbekistan.
This beautiful piece is in the permanent collection of the METMUSEUM.
inv. nr 02.18.765

best,
Jasper
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Old 14th December 2013, 02:13 PM   #15
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Thank you Jasper, and for adding this beautiful cross guard. You are right, these Islamic forms do tend to be far later than the 15th century as you note, and one of the compelling questions always present in the study of ethnographic weapons is what sources, particularly European, influenced them. When seen together comparatively as you have well shown, the dimension of the question becomes even more profoundly intriguing!
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Old 15th December 2013, 12:09 PM   #16
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Default plate with gothic text at grip

Hi Jim,

thanks and yes very true, who was previously the chicken or the egg?

the excavated dagger has a brass plate engraved with Gothic text on the left-hand side of the grip

I have not figured out what the meaning is.

best,
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Old 6th January 2014, 01:44 PM   #17
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a later Ballock with calyx grip, coverplate and gryphon heads from the royal arsenal copenhagen, Denmark
it is of a sub type between the dagger of post #11 and the dagger from thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18012
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Old 14th October 2014, 07:33 AM   #18
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some better pics of my collection dagger and a dagger from the collection of

the Art Institute of Chicago with ramsheadguillons

German

Ballock Dagger, late 15th century

Steel and silver
L. 36.8 cm (14 1/2 in.)
Blade L. 23.5 cm (9 1/4 in.)
Wt. 8 oz.

George F. Harding Collection, 1982.3470
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Old 14th October 2014, 03:51 PM   #19
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Cute.
This type of daggers sure looks lethal... and valuable
Thanks for sharing.
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