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Old 15th May 2015, 03:24 PM   #1
Cerjak
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Default BASKET HILT FOR ID

I would like to know from which kind of sword this basket hilt is.

Any comment on it will be welcome.

Best
Cerjak
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Old 15th May 2015, 06:39 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
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I would suggest this hilt is most likely a Spanish Colonial contrivance, and seems to correspond in degree to the shellguard espada we eventually attributed to Brazil and South American provenance. These have similar dots and lined profile in a radiused shell configuration in the motif.
The heavy swirl and domed rivets etc. also remind me of 19th c. Spanish colonial 'faux court' swords. The narrow blade aperture looks like it would be for one of these kind of stiff narrow dress type blades.

Aside from perhaps 'theatrical' potential, the Spanish colonial seems plausible. There may be a potential for a fencing type weapon as well.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 04:23 AM   #3
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Those were just my comments as per your request, not satisfactory?
I'd be interested in your opinion on the hilt, or anybody out there. It is an interesting example and I think worth at least some comment or response.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 09:34 PM   #4
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I agree with Jim wholeheartedly. Spanish colonial, mid- to late 19th. The basket work with raised rivets exactly like the espadas in Brincherhoff's Spanish colonial sword book (pg 176, plate 174/175 for rivet-constructed swords). I've often compared the recurved bars, with their primitive line design/star decorations and unique raised rivets to early Mexican spurs as far as similarity in design.

Jim, I remember you helping me identify my Brazilian cutlass from years ago, that piece decorated with similar designs...
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Old 23rd May 2015, 11:29 PM   #5
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Thank you so much Mark!!!
Yes those cutlasses were truly the link to the southern Americas version of the espada ancha, and were classic examples of the rural charm and design of these Spanish Colonial weapons. The rivets on this, as you point out, also remind me of the so called 'round tang' espada anchas with the four branch guards (Adams, '85).
All the best,
Jim
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Old 24th May 2015, 10:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you so much Mark!!!
Yes those cutlasses were truly the link to the southern Americas version of the espada ancha, and were classic examples of the rural charm and design of these Spanish Colonial weapons. The rivets on this, as you point out, also remind me of the so called 'round tang' espada anchas with the four branch guards (Adams, '85).
All the best,
Jim

Hello Jim
Thank you for your comment I have spent many time in research to find an example with similar hilt without result ,if you have a picture for a similar sword I would be happy to see it.
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Cerjak
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Old 24th May 2015, 10:31 PM   #7
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Finding an exact copy of these types of swords isn't going to happen! Colonial types were fashioned by local blacksmiths, who often used various sword parts and hand-wrought pieces of metal to make their creations! I've often half-heartedly jested that colonial espadas are true 'folk art', being that no two are alike! Yes, there were some of a specific pattern, such as the so called Caribbean cuphilts and such, but many are the 'Frankensteins' of the sword world. I love them for this quality, but others may not. If you happen to come across Brinckerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", you will see the decorations, designs, forging techniques and generalized patterns of which we speak. That book is hard to find these days, however...
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Old 25th May 2015, 02:35 AM   #8
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Cerjak, thank you so much for responding. I was wondering if these comments were of interest to you, and was hoping you might add your own thoughts of what the hilt might be. Perhaps if you might add any data on provenance of the piece and what context it might have been from, also it is always helpful to know what resources you used in your research.

As Mark has well explained, these kinds of hilts have as many variations as there were artisans creating them, and the theme of these pierced dots in striated fashion were as noted found on a number of Spanish colonial hilts of the 19th century.

I will add images of some examples which might illustrate what we are describing, but an exact match is unlikely as these were not fabricated using a pattern book, but artisans interpretations of known forms and functional elements using often 'recycled parts'. I have seen such pieces using old 18th century dragoon blades, three bar cavalry guards and briquette grips, among other examples.

Would be interested to hear your views.

Best regards,
Jim
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Old 25th May 2015, 03:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Cerjak, thank you so much for responding. I was wondering if these comments were of interest to you, and was hoping you might add your own thoughts of what the hilt might be. Perhaps if you might add any data on provenance of the piece and what context it might have been from, also it is always helpful to know what resources you used in your research.

As Mark has well explained, these kinds of hilts have as many variations as there were artisans creating them, and the theme of these pierced dots in striated fashion were as noted found on a number of Spanish colonial hilts of the 19th century.

I will add images of some examples which might illustrate what we are describing, but an exact match is unlikely as these were not fabricated using a pattern book, but artisans interpretations of known forms and functional elements using often 'recycled parts'. I have seen such pieces using old 18th century dragoon blades, three bar cavalry guards and briquette grips, among other examples.

Would be interested to hear your views.

Best regards,
Jim

Dear Jim
First of all I bought this hilt without any knowledge about is origin only because it my eyes it was an interesting hilt and with the information you have post here I have tried to find more ,so for my research I donít have so much books but several books : Cameron and the encyclopedia from Claude Blair and av Norman ,also a lot of auctionís catalogues.But I have to say that most of the information are found in the forum with the help from the members like Mark and you did it for this hilt.
Again many thanks for your precious help !
Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 25th May 2015, 04:51 PM   #10
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Jean Luc,
Actually the reason Mark and were so quickly attuned to this hilt is because we both share a passion for Spanish Colonial items, and this is a great example. While you might be limited in published resources, you have an incredibly astute and discerning eye for unique items (I recall the exceptional 'Casssignard' blade you found a couple of years ago).

I know I have seen this same type of 'curl' on another Spanish hilt years ago (I think it was one I had from Mexico), and the holes between lines on another, but I cannot yet find the pictures. As always the search for similar or close match will continue.
The forums and archives here are one of the most valuable resources we can have, and the collective knowledge shared by everyone who has specialty fields in discussions on these pages are what its all about.
Thank you again for sharing!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 26th May 2015, 12:46 AM   #11
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FOUND THEM!!
These are terrible quality, and had to use phone but hopefully they are legible enough to illustrate.

The guard with open bars is a form from Mexico often termed the round tang style espada (Adams, '85) however these clearly are mounted with standard tang dragoon blades. It seems the term 'gavilan' was used for them, but more on that cannot recall at moment.
The 'curl' I spoke of can be seen at the base of each bar. Also note the type of rivets/screws which seem regularly used on these types of hilts.

It would seem that rather than forged bars, this is more a pierced sheet steel basket but still recalling the general style.

The closed shell is the style we now attribute to South America for the provenanced mid 19th century example from Brazil. It is a sword I had with an English blade by Lyndon & Wignall (Joseph Lyndon & Wm Wignall, Minerva Works, 1828-1836).

As Mark and I noted, exact match for this spectrum of variations in these settings is pretty unlikely, but I think these examples support the attribution. In my opinion an outstanding example of the innovation and skill of Spanish Colonial artisans .









Here are the photos of the two forms of hilt.
The open hilt is with bar type guard from Mexico, the shellguard with striated lines and drilled holes is the Brazilian form espada.
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Last edited by Jim McDougall : 26th May 2015 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 26th May 2015, 03:18 PM   #12
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A well-constructed and supported argument, Jim. Well done!
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Old 26th May 2015, 03:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
FOUND THEM!!
These are terrible quality, and had to use phone but hopefully they are legible enough to illustrate.

The guard with open bars is a form from Mexico often termed the round tang style espada (Adams, '85) however these clearly are mounted with standard tang dragoon blades. It seems the term 'gavilan' was used for them, but more on that cannot recall at moment.
The 'curl' I spoke of can be seen at the base of each bar. Also note the type of rivets/screws which seem regularly used on these types of hilts.

It would seem that rather than forged bars, this is more a pierced sheet steel basket but still recalling the general style.

The closed shell is the style we now attribute to South America for the provenanced mid 19th century example from Brazil. It is a sword I had with an English blade by Lyndon & Wignall (Joseph Lyndon & Wm Wignall, Minerva Works, 1828-1836).

As Mark and I noted, exact match for this spectrum of variations in these settings is pretty unlikely, but I think these examples support the attribution. In my opinion an outstanding example of the innovation and skill of Spanish Colonial artisans .









Here are the photos of the two forms of hilt.
The open hilt is with bar type guard from Mexico, the shellguard with striated lines and drilled holes is the Brazilian form espada.



Very interesting Jim !
Thank you for your contribution.
I will post in a new thread the picture from the rest of a pole arm I bought with this hilt I 'm wondering if it could have a link between this 2 parts of weapons.
Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 28th May 2015, 05:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
A well-constructed and supported argument, Jim. Well done!



Thank you so much Oliver! I really appreciate that, and means a lot to hear.
All the best,
Jim
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