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Old 15th December 2012, 03:09 PM   #1
Norman McCormick
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Default Spanish Albacete Dagger.

Hi,
New addition, 7 3/4 inch blade O.A. just shy of 12 inches. I guess second half 19thC, it is sharp starting approx 2 inches up from the point I presume to keep the point thicker and sturdier. It still has the brass insert which appears to be missing on quite a few. Very 'comfortable' in hand. Any and all replies appreciated.
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 15th December 2012, 09:50 PM   #2
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Hi Norman,

Very nice example of a Punal (dagger) Type B.
As you rightly say, probobly made in Albacete in the second half of the 19th century.
These insert blade types are very interesting. What does it do?

Best
Gene

P.S. Carlos has got an impressive selection fo these:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16211
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Old 15th December 2012, 10:46 PM   #3
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As a little post-script. My Type B also has no attempt at an edge near the point. In fact. On mine (shown below) the first 3cm are not edged. Very reminicent of an armour piercing tip. Well noted Norman, I don't think I've seen it mentioned before.
Perhaps Carlos will see this and can offer a comparison with his numerous examples?
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Old 16th December 2012, 01:21 PM   #4
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Hi Gene,
Thanks for coming in on this, trawling the past threads I did note you had a certain penchant for these daggers. As far as the voids and inserts go I can only see a decorative element to these, far too far up the blade for 'poison' and why would you want to put poison on them anyway the blade profile is excellent as it is for thrusting to a depth that would be meaningful. My blade does not have a proper edge for 8.5 cms from the point and then it is perfectly sharp up to the point where it cuts in under the guard. Rather than a reinforced point per se I would surmise material has not been removed by sharpening that section thereby leaving it more robust for the obvious reasons, makes sense? I think these knives are meant to be both decorative and designed to be used much like the S.American Criollo (gaucho) knives. I really like the earlier one you have, quite a menacing beast. Thanks again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. It would be interesting if those members who have one/some of these daggers to check out if theirs has an unsharpened point and to what extent up the blade it remains so.
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Old 16th December 2012, 02:09 PM   #5
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Hello !!
Congratulations with this adquisition !!
Thanks for comment my collection, In Spain this type of knives are common in collectors web pages or antiques shop web page, and not more expensive.
I have seen my examples and I have seen one with this type without edged near the point.
Best regards

carlos
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Old 16th December 2012, 02:49 PM   #6
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Hi Guys,

Well you know I'm always ready to talk about these!
I've tried to photograph the ppoint of mine edge-on to illustrate.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:08 PM   #7
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Hi Gene, Carlos,
Apologies for not getting back sooner. See the not very good image, hand held compact camera under a desk lamp , but you get the gist. How old is this form?, seems to have a touch of the 'Medievals' to me, probably my imagination. Carlos, you have a good selection there, nice to see the variations.
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Gene, Carlos,
Apologies for not getting back sooner. See the not very good image, hand held compact camera under a desk lamp , but you get the gist. How old is this form?, seems to have a touch of the 'Medievals' to me, probably my imagination. Carlos, you have a good selection there, nice to see the variations.
Regards,
Norman.


Hi Norman,

Thats very interesting, your's seems to have exactly the same tip as mine.

I'm sure Carlos knows more about these than I.

As far as I know, although the 'type' goes back at least into the 18th century, the specific form of the type B, like yours and mine are usually attributed to the second half 19thC.
I've seen lots of slightly more elaborte ones (If memory serves often the lantern hilt type) with dated blades, often the dates are in the 1870s or around there.
I would say that if you claimed both of ours were made around then, you wouldn't be far out. Mid to late second half 19thC
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:36 PM   #9
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Here is mine, what a wonderfull couple they would make together!
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Old 22nd December 2012, 12:00 PM   #10
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Hi Guys,
Many thanks for your input and info on this dagger. Gene, I can understand your fascination with these daggers, nice wee things . Valjhun, very nice example you have there even the insert is pierced and yes they would make a fine pair . Thanks again guys.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Guys,
Many thanks for your input and info on this dagger. Gene, I can understand your fascination with these daggers, nice wee things . Valjhun, very nice example you have there even the insert is pierced and yes they would make a fine pair . Thanks again guys.
My Regards,
Norman.


Hi Norman,

Now, you know I don't like to conjecture or repeat rumours etc
No, not me, just cold facts here
But.....
In searching for these online I have come across many references to 'alleged' maritime use.
I've seen it claimed that the 'type B' were used by sailors/fishermen etc. I've seen claims of them being used to repair sails and nets. I've even seen them described as 'Dirks'.
Now, although I've never managed to find anything that actually corroborates any of that, It 'might' explain the tip being 'edgeless'?
If it was to double as a 'stitching awl' it might be better that it pushes the material apart without any 'slicing' that might lead to a rip?


Just a thought.
Best
Gene
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Old 23rd December 2012, 02:48 PM   #12
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Hi Gene,
I see where your coming from, I'l have a good rake on the net and see what comes up. The awl part is difficult in that the eye for twine/thread should be nearer the point, to my mind it is too far up the blade to be practical and also some blades don't have the piercings. Still it's worth pursuing you never know. Thanks for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 03:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Gene,
I see where your coming from, I'l have a good rake on the net and see what comes up. The awl part is difficult in that the eye for twine/thread should be nearer the point, to my mind it is too far up the blade to be practical and also some blades don't have the piercings. Still it's worth pursuing you never know. Thanks for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.


Hi Matey,
Just making holes. Definately no use for actually threading twine.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 05:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Matey,
Just making holes. Definately no use for actually threading twine.



Hi Gene,
See what you mean, I got the wrong end of the stick.
My Regards,
Norman
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:42 AM   #15
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Default Albacete mystery holes

Hello All,

Pardon me if I've missed it, but I have not found a satisfactory explanation for the cutouts and holes in the blades of these knives. At one time there was a suggestion that it had something to do with sail making. At another time, a place to put poison, or a mount for jewels -- yet no evidence for any theory that I could find.

I showed my knives to an expert sailor, familiar with the history of the sailmaking craft, and he could not fathom a reason for the design. He was very concerned about the sharp points and edges on the knives near valuable fabric.

Here are two pictures of my Albacete puñals. One is considerably larger but other than that they are VERY similar, EXCEPT
… note the arrows pointing to two locations on each knife. In one case holes, in the other, no holes.

What is the explanation?!??!?

Best Regards,

Dave A.
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