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Old 20th January 2014, 08:38 AM   #31
Matchlock
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Another heavy wrought-iron tiller haquebut barrel, ca. 1500-10 (wall gun, ganzer Haken), the wooden tiller stock broken off but remains of oak retained in the socket; round socket, barrel octagonal to round, with stepped, pointed, pierced hook placed unusually far at the rear, at about 40 per cent of the overall length of the piece, large touch hole with hollowed igniting pan beneath, located at half-right position; short, swamped, round muzzle section accentuated by a small roped frieze ('Maximilian' style muzzle, Maximilianischer Mündungskopf).
Length overall 108 cm, weight ca. 10 kg.

Sold Hermann Historica, Munich, 22 April 1988.
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Old 20th January 2014, 11:51 AM   #32
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Michael, thank You so much. You share photos of a lot of barrels which I have not seen before. It's a really rich food for my mind. I need some time to comprehend this information
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Old 20th January 2014, 12:26 PM   #33
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It's my turn to say thank you for reading, Alexender, my friend,


It took me four decades, including taking more than 180,000 photos, to gather together all the information and sort of transform its essence into dating criteria, which now have to be digested. I realize that.


Hang on, please,
'cause there's a lot more to come.


Best,
Michael
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Old 20th January 2014, 12:37 PM   #34
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Another attachment to post #1:

a light wrought-iron tiller haquebut (German: Halbhaken), of octagonal section throughout, with round rear socket, slightly swamped muzzle, and retaining its orignal tiller stock, ca. 1430-50. The touch hole is not shown but must be located on the top flat of the barrel.
Preserved in the Statens Historiska Museum Stockholm.
Barrel length 59.5 cm, maximum outer diameter 4.2 cm, bore 21 mm, weight 4.935 kg.


m
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Old 20th January 2014, 01:00 PM   #35
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Red face Going back to the Aljubarrota myth

Yes Michl, long goes this thread/work, in which you show us and teach us a lot, for which we may only feel much obliged.
To lend the thread a touch of "variety", allow me post the oldest specimen kept in the Portuguese Maritime Musem, which i have twice visited and from which i keep a catalogue on the Artillery thematic.
It is known by the name of "Aljubarrota trom" although, contrary to tradition, it would have never been in this memorable battle. (quoting catalogue author Colonel Nuno Valdez dos Santos; now deceased ).
The text also says that, with its half ton weight and 1,5 mts. length, this is no more than a (loading) chamber from a huge trom or gross bombard, which possible had a 4 to 5 meters length.
Pity that when i was there i didn't take a (clandestine) picture of its touch hole. Maybe when you come down to Lisbon we go there and do it .

.
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:00 PM   #36
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Found this (ex Bonhams) that looks like its been cut down from something early.
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:27 PM   #37
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A beauty in your collection, Michl
... or a circumvented touch hole .


.
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:33 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yes Michl, long goes this thread/work, in which you show us and teach us a lot, for which we may only feel much obliged.
To lend the thread a touch of "variety", allow me post the oldest specimen kept in the Portuguese Maritime Musem, which i have twice visited and from which i keep a catalogue on the Artillery thematic.
It is known by the name of "Aljubarrota trom" although, contrary to tradition, it would have never been in this memorable battle. (quoting catalogue author Colonel Nuno Valdez dos Santos; now deceased ).
The text also says that, with its half ton weight and 1,5 mts. length, this is no more than a (loading) chamber from a huge trom or gross bombard, which possible had a 4 to 5 meters length.
Pity that when i was there i didn't take a (clandestine) picture of its touch hole. Maybe when you come down to Lisbon we go there and do it .



Thanks, 'Nando,

For sharing this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria.
Yes, to see the touch hole would have been the only possibilty ... Wouldn't they let you take one single photo?

Come on, just do what I used to do in such cases, especially when I did not have a special appointment and was allowed to use flaslight: when they yelled at me 'no photography in here!', I would just go on taking pictures as quickly as possible, pretending that I didn't realize it was me they were talking to. As soon as they got near I would turn around saying, 'Oh, it's me you're talking to. My hearing's not good. Sorry, Sir, my fault.' By then, of course I mostly had what I needed.
What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up.

Best,
Michl
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:37 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
A beauty in your collection, Michl
... or a circumvente touch hole .



Indeed, 'Nando,

I have never seen anything like that piece again, and I am very glad I bought it from an old Austrian blacksmith who was not willing to part with it for weeks.

Best,
Michl
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raf
Found this (ex Bonhams) that looks like its been cut down from something early.



Thanks for sharing, Raf,



Yes, this barrel with rich magic markings was sawn off.

It somehow managed to escape my attentiveness; when was that Bonhams sale?

I attached images of a barrel struck with similar magic markings, early 15th c., and two other, similar.


Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 20th January 2014 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 20th January 2014, 02:59 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria....

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
...What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up...


Oh, i'm the acid type; if they eat me, they'll get an indigestion
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Old 20th January 2014, 04:09 PM   #42
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Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=montjuic

They came from a U.S. dealer who had many more, all deacessioned from that castle.


The first one is the plainest of this group of three; it is in my collection.
It is a small tiller gun (German: Viertelhaken), ca. 1430-40, of round section throughout, with short, early-style reinforced, octagonally accentuated breech (still loaded!), small touch hole (ca. 2 mm) on top, in the center of a hollowed trough, the round socket retaining a heavily wormed portion of its original wooden tiller stock; the crudely wrought barrel tapering towards the short, swamped, round and bell-mouthed muzzle section; no sighting.
The socket inscribed in ink now turned yellowish:
CASTiLLO de BERNAT (the rest illegible)
BARCELONA SPAIN (again the rest illegible)
1331 . A.D.
Very few other barrels are known to feature a notably reinforced breech section; they all date of the beginning and the first half of the 15th c.
Preserved in optimum, virtually untouched condition.
Overall length 72.6 cm, barrel length 56.2 cm, bore ca. 21 mm, somewhat irregularly.

The second is highly notable for its socket folding for transport: another Viertelhaken, ca. 1440-50, of round section throughout, with seven reinforcing rings, the short rounded breech pierced with an irregular small touch hole on top amidst a round trough, the round socket inscribed similar to the first, equiped with a threaded double-scroll wingnut and folding down with the wingnut loosened (the wooden tiller stock missing), and short, round, swamped muzzle section.
Barrel length 45.5 cm, bore 12 mm.

The third of similar small dimensions, of round section throughout, the long, reinforced, round breech with small touch hole on top, accentuated by three raised bands, the foremost two crudely roped, the long, round, integrally wrought iron tiller bent upwards and terminating in a swamped mushroom-shaped knob. On the ground of the two roped bands, I would tend to date this 'late 15th c.', but then again, all the remaining criteria are so close to the other two barrels that these roped friezes may be a later addition.
In all, this tiller gun should be attributed to the mid-15th c as well.
Exact measurements not recorded.


m
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Old 20th January 2014, 04:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain:...

Which disgracefully closed its museulogical space . If this were not published with the due expansion, i was informed by its documentalist, whith whom i was exchanging correspondence at the time.
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Old 20th January 2014, 04:31 PM   #44
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The other two Montjuic guns.
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Old 20th January 2014, 04:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!


Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

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Old 20th January 2014, 05:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

I assume you got my saying that, although this is currently called a trom (bombard), it is a reloading chamber and not an actual cannon .
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Old 20th January 2014, 05:33 PM   #47
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Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=breech+loading


Best,
Michl
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Old 20th January 2014, 05:45 PM   #48
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An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.
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Old 20th January 2014, 06:39 PM   #49
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I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example .
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth
I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

.

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Old 20th January 2014, 07:03 PM   #50
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Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:19 AM   #51
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Next to my haquebut barrel dated 1481 (see above), here is another important and dated piece, the breech struck with the date 1507. It is for a long, heavy-weight wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), starting octagonal at the breech and changing to a round section at about one fourth of its length, emphasized by an incised double line. If it were not dated, 'ca. 1500 or beginning of the 16th c.' would have been my classification based on the above-mentioned criteria. The touch hole is on the right-hand side, and a long dovetail behind the igniting hole denotes that once a pan had been attached that is missing today. That pan, as well as the two barrel loops, most probably were added in its working life, ca. 1530, when that barrel obviously was re-used with a full stock.
Above the rear of the breech, a maker's mark, showing the earliest use of initials I have ever noted on any barrel, IV in a square shield, has been deeply struck three times in the Gothic tradition, symbolizing the stylistic trefoil element. There is another dovetail on the rear top of the barrel, for a rear sight (missing), and also at the rear there is the earliest type of a barrel tang (Schwanzschraube), in all probability also added in ca. 1530. We may assume that originally in 1507, there was a long rear socket for a wooden tiller, and the piercing of the rectangular hook served for mounting the piece on a tripod. The muzzle is bell-mouthed.
Overall length 145.5 cm, bore 40 mm!
It was sold Hermann Historica, Munich, exactly 500 years after it was made, 2 May 2007.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:46 AM   #52
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This crudely made piece is really hard to date, c. 1500, I woud say.
It retained its original tiller stock, showing an early shape of primitive buttstock nailed to the socket of the stout, round barrel, which featured a raised fire shield and hollowed touch hole of 5 mm diameter on top, a rectangular hook and a slightly swamped muzzle.
An old inventory no. was painted in red on the underside of the buttstock.
It was only 88 cm long, weighing 8 kg.
It was sold Bonhams London, 1 Dec 2009.

m
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:52 AM   #53
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More of that willfully shaped haquebut.
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Old 21st January 2014, 12:16 PM   #54
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This heavy three-staged wrought-iron haquebut wall gun barrel (Doppelhaken), ca. 1530-40, was wrought octagonally at both the breech and the elongated muzzle section bearing a blade foresight, with a long, round mid-section in between. The beginning of the swamped muzzle section was highlighted by a roped frieze. The breech featured the most unusual rear sight that I have ever noticed (now damaged). The three relatively finely made barrel loops and the dovetailed rectangular pan, its cover missing, all indicate a rather late date of make. The long, rectangular hook is no longer pierced. No doubt, this barrel was made for a full stock.
Overal length 121.4 cm, bore 2.8 cm.
Sold Bonhams London, 1 April 2004.

m
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Old 21st January 2014, 01:00 PM   #55
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Default Haquebuts With Dummy Barrels!

On 15 Dec 2004, Sotheby's London sold part of the armory of Schloss Fronsberg, Styria, comprising a number of Austrian military matchlock muskets, late Thirty Years War period, ca. 1645, the stocks totally unvarnished (the finest of them now being in my collection), plus a large number of broken stocks of wheellock and matchlock muskets, basically only the buttstocks present, with the barrels all missing.
Three of the lots, 157, 159 and 160, contained a total of five earlier stocks, all preserved in 'untouched' but heavily damaged condition, of Styrian haquebuts of ca. 1540, the tinderlock mechanisms retained but partly incomplete, with the barrels all gone. Each of those three lots fetched a tremendous price although all they comprised were mere fragments, mostly of early- to mid-17th c. wheellock and matchlock guns, plus a few detached barrels belonging to none of the fragments!

Well, I found out that somebody from Portugal, whom I had got to know many years ago, bought all those lots on the phone without even having viewed them or ordered lots of photos - the way I did. He told me he was planning on completing all those relicts and selling them. I replied that I had my sincere doubts whether that would work. He offered me the worst preserved of the five early stocks for 12.500 euro, which I rejected. So I kept watching out.

On 26 Nov 2008, two of those formerly fragmentary stocks and locks entered the auction at Bonhams London, furnished with a brandnew coat of paint, and 'completed' with iron dummy barrels the bores of which were drilled only for a short length! They were described correctly by David Wiliams and, of course, did not sell.
The first piece attached was the result of a completely incompetent 'restoration', the tinderlock serpentine, trigger and trigger guard all made in 17th c. style, instead of the original ca. 1540 shape, even though it came from Fronsberg with that 17th c. trigger and guard. The second retained its damaged tinder holder and long tiller trigger (bent).

But the story goes on.

On 17 Oct 2010, the two pieces showed up at Hermann Historica's, Munich, lots 2017 and 2028, where they failed to sell.
On 4 Nov 2013, one of those dummies was unsold again at Hermann Historica's sale in Munich, lot 21. Once more, the catalog text stated that the barrel actually was a dummy.
They continue making their round on the market, though.



Best,
Michael
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Old 21st January 2014, 01:51 PM   #56
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Default Two 14th c. Wrought-iron Handgonnes

The first ca. 1375-1400, sold Christie's Rome, June 18, 1975.

A so-called Steinbüchse, wrought of wound band iron (cf. the Aljubarrota barrels) but of more archaic form, with small breech (Pulverkammer) and wider forword piece (Flug) to receive either an incendiary arrow (Büchsen-Brandpfeil) or a limestone ball.
Overall length 23 cm.

Originally probably attached to a stock by two iron bands.
Its present whereabouts unknown.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=handgonne+iron



Another, important and finely wrought Steinbüchse for throwing limestone balls or incendiary arrows, also ca. 1375-1400, segmented, with various reinforced sections, round throughout, large touch hole at rear top end, the breech and a reinforced segment punched with Gothic trefoils and a row of circles, the wide muzzle section struck on top with the Cross of St. George, which might be an indication of a Swiss origin.
Mounted with a swiveling ring for suspension, possibly for a horseman of the kind depicted in a mid-15th c. drawing (attached).
Overall length 34.2 cm.
Sold Sotheby's London, 8 Dec 1988, lot 276.

Best,
m
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Old 21st January 2014, 02:43 PM   #57
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Default A Very Dubious 'Handgonne'

This and similar pieces have made their way through the market on various continents. In an U.S. auction it allegedly sold at 4,000 USD on 3 Dec 2010, but failed to sell at Hermann Historica, Munich, on 4 May 2004 at an estimate of 2,800 euro.
The overall length is 28.5 cm, the weight 3.72 kg.

In my opinion, some joker drove two barrels, wrought of wound band iron, and of Aljubarrota type into each other; the rectangular barrel loop at the end of the larger barrel seems to be an 18th/19th c. addition.


m
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Old 21st January 2014, 03:23 PM   #58
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Default A Rare Nuremberg Workpiece of a Tiller Gun Bronze Barrel, Mid-15th c.

Finely wrought, of octagonal section, with integrally cast bands and friezes in high relief, the chiseling work seemingly unfinished, one band bearing the initials INRI (for Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum); the touch hole with igniting pan at the right side of the top flat, with rear end socket for attachment of a tiller stock, above the breech two indistinct coats-of-arms in shields, the forward section broken off and missing. In excavated condition.
Overall length 27 cm, retaining about half of its former length.
Hermann Historica, Munich, 5 Oct 2004, lot 504.

m
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Old 21st January 2014, 03:38 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl

Vinced ... but not convinced
This Aljubarrota cannon issue is way far from clarified, i guess.
I have sent an email to The Navy Museum, asking for pictures of the trom chamber in various angles, includign the touch hole. I don't have much hope that they will answer, though
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Old 21st January 2014, 03:59 PM   #60
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Most museums do not reply at all, 'Nando.

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