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Old 19th December 2013, 02:46 PM   #1
Marcus den toom
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Default German hackbut barrel

I found this hackbut barrel at a old auction, it is claimed to be 15th century but i found a similair one at Hermann Historica auction 62/63 lot 14. the one at Herman Historica is dated 17th century and French.
I am confused, 2 century's is quit a big range



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Old 19th December 2013, 03:26 PM   #2
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Hi Marcus,


Thanks for sharing but: what auction is this from?

And this matchlock petronel: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...4169#post164169
?



This hackbut/haquebut barrel you posted, on the grounds of its general shape and some clear formal criteria, can be safely dated to ca. 1530-40 and is, in all probability, neither of Nuremberg nor Augsburg nor Italian make but possibly Swiss, French or Netherlandish.

The dating criteria are: of rounded shape throughout, no clear sectioning except for the muzzle, small square backsight at the extreme base of the barrel, elongated, swamped and round muzzle section with roped freeze and square muzzle (often found on barrels from the Netherlands), bead foresight, long and slender hook and small right-hand side ignition pan, the pivoted swiveling pan cover now missing.

On the underside of the rear barrel base there ought to be (or may be missing) a round loop for a transversal stock pin; the other, forward pin went thru the hole in the hook.



Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 20th December 2013 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 19th December 2013, 03:37 PM   #3
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Hi Michael,

A thousand thanks, the barrel was still for sale apparantly but doublled in price since the last auction

This one can be found at the 40th auction of Czerny's auction house. A very nice auction house, it sold the Matchlock rifle i showed earlier just a few weeks ago as well.
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Old 19th December 2013, 03:42 PM   #4
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What exactly was the date and lot numbers of that haquebut and the matchlock petronel auction at Czerny's?
I could not find either of these in their catalogs.

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Old 19th December 2013, 03:45 PM   #5
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auction 43, lot number 1400
sold at sunday 17th of november

and the hackbut was auction 40 lot 930.
Maybe i will own it, probably not
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Old 19th December 2013, 04:03 PM   #6
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Thanks, Marcus,


The classification list of Czerny's is a catastrophe: the matchlock petronel is not listed either among 'long guns' or 'military firearms'! Thus I could not find it without knowing its lot no.

Could you please post the description and measurements of that haquebut barrel? Their catalog no. 40 is no longer online.


Best,
Michael
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Old 19th December 2013, 04:11 PM   #7
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Hi Michael,

All the Italian auction houses i know are a mess
But it was a specccial sale, so it was listed in a other categorie i think.
There is not uch to go on, but this is all
__________________________
provenance: Germany
dating: 15th Century

description: Heavy, smooth, round barrel with square nozzle, a strong hook at the front, breech with pan and sight.

note

condition: good
dimensions: length 123.5 cm.
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Old 19th December 2013, 05:05 PM   #8
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Thanks a lot, Marcus,

For the information!

Best,
m
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Old 19th December 2013, 07:35 PM   #9
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Hi Marcus,

As you do know Czerny's latest catalog so well, could you please tell me the lot no. of the wheellock combination weapon (a sword, a mace or an axe?) marked red on their cover scan attached?
I could not find it in any of their sections but it must be there somewhere ...

Thanks again in advance for your assistance,
Michael
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Old 19th December 2013, 08:04 PM   #10
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A tricky one indeed
Lot number 1497, it was sold for €14000,- a considerable amount seeing that this weapon was offered for sale for just €8000,- a half year earlier at a different auction
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Old 19th December 2013, 09:58 PM   #11
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And once more my heartfelt thanks go to you, Marcus!

Sectioning that weapon among 'miniature weapons' is not tricky but simply wrong as this of course is not a miniature weapon but an absolutely correct and full-size, fine and extremely rare gilt-etched combined wheellock pistol and horseman's hammer, Nuremberg, ca. 1550-55 (Czerny's labeled it as 'late 16th c.')!

Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 20th December 2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:51 PM   #12
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Hi Marcus,


Here is a postscript to my comment on that haquebut barrel:

I just noticed that a former fire shield is most probably missing from the pan as well. The left hole must have been meant for it, and it must have been riveted where I marked the spot in red. The hole to the right of the pan trough was for the riveted pivot of the missing, formerly swiveling pan cover.


Best,
Michael
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:19 PM   #13
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A good observation Michael
Would this barrel been fastened by iron bands? I can not find the loops onder the barrel you otherwise would see, but the pictures are not that revealing either

I found this at Bonhams, they say it is around 1500 but there is no real hook, more a rectangular "hook". So earlier? (bonhams 30nov 2011)
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19002/lot/244/
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Marcus,
On the underside of the rear barrel base there ought to be (or may be missing) a round loop for a transversal stock pin; the other, forward pin went thru the hole in the hook.
Best,
Michael


As there obviously was no side view provided by the auction house I cannot tell whether the rear loop is still there or not.

What date was that Bonhams sale? That barrel is mid-16th c., possibly Italian or French, the dovetailed pan is missing.


Best,
m
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Last edited by Matchlock : 20th December 2013 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 06:08 PM   #15
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it was the sale on 30november in 2011 (london).

I thought that rectangular "hooks" on these barrels where made earlier?
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Old 20th December 2013, 06:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
it was the sale on 30november in 2011 (london).

I thought that rectangular "hooks" on these barrels where made earlier?



This wall hook should actually not be called 'rectangular'; it's rather rounded, basically very much like the one on that Czerny's barrel, and figured as a sea monster.
As I have tried to state several times, the earliest - and actually rectangular - wall hooks on barrels seem to have appeared in ca. 1430; they evolved a certain degree of staging after ca. 1450, and after ca. 1510-15 they seem to have taken on rounded (Renaissance-type) shapes.
Wall hooks had normally disappeared by ca. 1600 but are found as late as the second half of the 18th c. (!!!) on special types of wallgun barrels.

Best,
Michael
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Old 25th December 2013, 06:00 PM   #17
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Default A Good Nuremberg Hackbut, ca. 1540, in the Army Museum Stockholm

Although the snap tinderlock and swiveling pan cover are missing, the finely preserved lime wood or pear wood full stock will convey a good impression of what such pieces would look like when complete.
The second, the blackened fir wood (!) stock heavily wormed, dry rotten and probably not to be saved, the lock mechanism also missing, I photographed in the famous Oberhausmuseum Passau, Lower Bavaria, a bit over 100 km east of where I live.
Regarding the stock, I must add that I offered them to consolidate and conserve it right at my first visit there some 35 years ago. They did not show the least interest though I warned them that it would dissolve before their very eyes. When I got there again a few years later, they had soaked it in crude linseed oil thru and thru, resulting in severe wood losses. That was a final treatment, nothing can be done about it any more. All it is now is a sticky, almost amorphous mass. I would have given that stock hundreds of injections of a hot watery solution of bone glue for days and weeks, and the surface would have been unharmed and unchanged. Museums ...


Anyway, you remember I hold some fine Nuremberg hagbut/haquebut/hackbut barrels coming from that museum during WW II in my collection.


Also attached find a snap tinderlock, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, made by Hans Koler (the hourglass mark should be attributed to him), of exactly the type missing from the Stockholm and Passau pieces. The wing nut is missing from the serpentine. That lock is preserved in the Bavarian Army Museum Ingolstadt, 30 km from my home; it belongs to an arquebus of ca. 1540, the barrel marked by Hans Mörl, who shared a workshop with Hans Koler in 1537. The museum staff do not realize (or even believe) that the mechanism belongs to the gun ...



Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 26th December 2013 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 25th December 2013, 06:04 PM   #18
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The snap tinderlock mechanism.
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Old 27th December 2013, 02:15 PM   #19
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Thanks Michael,

Do you also have a picture of the inside of this mechanism?
I imagine a spring on top holding the sear in place rather than underneath the sear like those in other matchlocks?

edit:
O wait, i already see the spring attachement inside the lockplate on one of your pictures. The spring was situated underneath the sear, only at the other side of the pivoting point (i think?)
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Old 27th December 2013, 02:29 PM   #20
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No, Marcus,


If I had one I had posted it, it is in a class case that the BAM will open for nobody. But from what I can see the spring must be located under the sear, just like on a wheellock mechanism. Your editing thought was pefectly right!

I attach images of the similarly construed lock of my Tusco-Emilian (Brescia) snap-tinderlock arquebus of ca. 1525-30, the serpentine shaped as a seahorse.


m
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Old 31st December 2013, 05:37 PM   #21
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The Musée de l'Armée in Paris holds this perfectly preserved specimen of a Nuremberg hackbut of ca. 1535-40, complete in all its original parts; it was never fitted with a ramrod.

You can see how close I got to the original by choosing the Ingolstadt lock mechanism as an adequate association. Interestingly, the tinderholder on the Paris piece is a movable clamp, instead of a wing nut.


m
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Old 1st January 2014, 02:25 PM   #22
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An early hackbut with unusually finely preserved three-stage wrought-iron octagonal barrel, ca. 1460-70, at the museum of Granson castle, Switzerland. It retains its original stock but never had a lock mechanism.

m
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Old 2nd January 2014, 11:14 AM   #23
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Default Completely Preserved Tinderlock Hackbuts of the 1550's in the Landszeughaus Graz

Most barrels from this series are dated, the earliest year being 1554; one of the most common dates, i.e. when especially many pieces were bought from the gunmakers, was 1557, but years of the 1560's until as late as 1587 are also to be found.
The highly figured, blackened full stocks are of pearwood (!), which is highly unusual for large and heavy pieces, and fitted mostly with snapping tinderlock mechanisms, their main springs mounted on the outside of the lock plate, and fitted with a provision against cocking the tinderholder too far.
Many of the tinderholders are fitted with a wing nut but mostly just a movable clamp is employed.

In my collection there is a good, detached barrel dated 1557 from that Graz series, preserved in all its virtually 'untouched' patina.


Best,
m
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Old 2nd January 2014, 11:18 AM   #24
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Four more.

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