Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th June 2013, 09:59 PM   #1
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default Unusual gunong, from where?

Just win this very unusual gunong by ebay. First I never have seen a gunong with a handle like this, I think it's a pot whale tooth. Unfortunately is the tip broken. But what seems to my eyes much more strange is the scabbard, could this be T'Boli or Bagobo?

All comments are very appreciated.

Detlef
Attached Images
      
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2013, 11:55 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,685
Default

I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)?

The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 12:08 AM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)?

The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me.


Hi Jose,

thank you very much for your thoughts about this gunong. Blade form look as well to my eyes like an early form. So the ukkil is Sulu, was it usual to lime the ukkil on Sulu? Ask myself if the metal mounts could be from silver and are maybe fresh polished not long ago.

Best regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 12:33 AM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 01:56 AM   #5
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,527
Default

That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale .
Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale .

Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 03:06 AM   #6
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale .
Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale .

Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime .

Well, it looks about the size of mine which is definitely IDed as Sperm whale. There is a great variety of tooth sizes in a whale mouth and of course, as you point out, younger and older whales.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 03:08 AM   #7
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Jose,

thank you very much for your thoughts about this gunong. Blade form look as well to my eyes like an early form. So the ukkil is Sulu, was it usual to lime the ukkil on Sulu? Ask myself if the metal mounts could be from silver and are maybe fresh polished not long ago.

Best regards,

Detlef

The metal looks like polished brass or white metal, not silver.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 04:37 AM   #8
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Default

IT COULD BE PILOT WHALE (SOMETIMES CALLED BLACK FISH) THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM AND THEY ARE NOTED FOR MASS STRANDINGS. BEFORE WHALEING AND THE SALE OF ALL WHALE MATERIAL WAS STOPPED THERE WERE PILOT, SPERM AND KILLER WHALE TEETH EASILY AVAILABLE.
THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS A LARGE TIGER TOOTH I HAVE SEEN TWO GUNONG WITH TIGER TEETH POMMELS OVER THE YEARS. WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 09:01 AM   #9
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,868
Default

Hello Detlef,

This looks like a later gunong to me: the blade might be lamianted - the luk were probably made by stock removal though; the (brass?) crosspiece also doesn't look pre-WW2 to me either.

If it is small, the pommel could come from several toothed whales as suggested. It's interesting that they used the tooth tip for attaching the blade/ferrule and filed down the base of the tooth for the pommel end.

I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it!

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 06:31 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.



Hi David,

you are correct, in Germany we call this whale "pot whale", my mistake! But found the term "pot whale" also in a online translator.

Can you post pictures from your example?

Best regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 06:37 PM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH.


Hello Barry,

there wasn't given measurements in the ebay auction but I think that it is rather small. Will post measurements when I have received it.

BTW, there have been tigers on the Philippines?

Best regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 06:49 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it!


Hello Kai,

will etch the blade when I have received it. Like you I think to see that the blade is laminated. Do you think that later gunongs will have a scabbard like this one? Frankly said I never have seen a gunong with such a scabbard.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 06:50 PM   #13
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Smile

NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD.
I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT )
THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 08:09 PM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD.
I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT )
THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES.


Yes, agree complete with you that most of the "ivory" sorts are traded from other parts of the world.
After I have received it I should be able to tell more about the material and as well if it is original to the blade or a later addition.

Best regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 10:51 PM   #15
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,527
Default

Unless that is a miniature Gunong it's not a Pilot Whale tooth of the size we find around here .
Looks like white brass or german silver .
I love the fat little luks .

Last edited by Rick : 12th June 2013 at 11:03 PM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2013, 11:22 PM   #16
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,685
Default

The other thing that makes me hesitate on calling this early are the luks - they are not the style used in earlier blades.

Curious to see if the blade is laminated or not.

As far as the scabbard is concerned, I have never seen one carved like this before.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 12:02 AM   #17
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Default

THE SCABBARD CARVING LOOKS A LOT LIKE THAT DONE ON THE PARANG SCABBARDS FROM JAVA DISCUSSED IN OLD POSTS.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 05:41 AM   #18
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,056
Default

Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk?

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 02:37 PM   #19
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
you are correct, in Germany we call this whale "pot whale", my mistake! But found the term "pot whale" also in a online translator.
Can you post pictures from your example?

Sorry Detlef, i can't post mine as it has been made into a rather personal ritual item that i do not show around. But i am fairly certain it is the same material and when i bought mine back in the 1960s it was positively IDed as Sperm whale.
Here are some more images of Sperm whale teeth and one made into a small knife handle for a sgian dubh. The teeth in a Sperm what come in a great variety of sizes from the much larger back teeth generally used scrimshaw to small teeth in the front of the jaw.
Attached Images
  
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 03:10 PM   #20
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Sorry Detlef, i can't post mine as it has been made into a rather personal ritual item that i do not show around. But i am fairly certain it is the same material and when i bought mine back in the 1960s it was positively IDed as Sperm whale.
Here are some more images of Sperm whale teeth and one made into a small knife handle for a sgian dubh. The teeth in a Sperm what come in a great variety of sizes from the much larger back teeth generally used scrimshaw to small teeth in the front of the jaw.


Hello David,

no problem, the pictures you have shown speak for themselve and I was nearly sure by my first guess that it is a sperm whale tooth.

Best regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 03:16 PM   #21
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk?

Best,
Robert


Hello Robert,

thank you. Agree with you that it is difficult to see by the pictures how the end is broken. Will know more when I have received it. Regarding about the handle material I am with David but who knows? But maybe I will be able to tell more when I have it in my hands.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2013, 05:06 PM   #22
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

I don't think this id dunong tusk. Dunong has a different surface character. See this example.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 05:43 AM   #23
Bangkaya
Member
 
Bangkaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 30
Default

The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....
Bangkaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 07:07 PM   #24
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangkaya
The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....

Bangkaya, would you happen to have pictures/examples of Waray-Waray work?
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 07:58 PM   #25
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Bangkaya, would you happen to have pictures/examples of Waray-Waray work?

I would also love to see examples if you have any Bangkaya.
Josť, if i am not mistaken i believe that Waray-Waray is the language and that the people themselves are referred to simply as Waray.
It seems that this language is spoken across Samar, Billiran and Leyte and i suppose that means that there are various tribes that come under the heading of the Waray people. Do all these people share the same motifs as well as their language?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2013, 09:27 PM   #26
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangkaya
The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....


Interesting.... Would also like to see examples.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2013, 01:00 AM   #27
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th June 2013, 05:34 AM   #28
Bangkaya
Member
 
Bangkaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...


Sorry for the late reply, but I assumed most collectors of Filipino weaponry would be familiar with Waray swords and design motifs. David is correct that the Waray are the ethno-linguistic group hailing from Leyte, Samar, and Bilaran. They are surrounded by the Ilonggos and the Cebuanos and are fiercely proud of their heritage. As Spunger has mentioned the weapon most closely associated with them is the garab made infamous by the pulajanes faction (mainly in Samar) and early examples of the binulang sansibar (though later sansibars have more of a Cebuano influence due the migration of Cebuano panday clans to the Carigara and Jaro regions of Leyte....but I digress.) More people would be familiar with the later examples of Waray weaponry with all those WWII souvenir "Victory" "talibons" usually marked with Leyte 1945 on the scabbards.

I realize my initial response was a bit vague. What I implied was that the scabbard looked Waray and may not be original to the dagger. This is actually quite common in the Philippines. I have an old junggayan barung with a replacement Ilonggo scabbard (it looks weird, but fits like a glove.) The gunong itself could be Moro (though I'm not 100% certain it is, too.) The reason I say Waray is because of the design motifs on that gunong scabbard show more Waray traits than any Bangsamoro traits from any of the Muslim peoples...especially those of Lupah Sug. For one, Moro design motifs would be more organic and amorphous with less defined borders. This scabbard has heavily defined motif borders and panels with more repetitive geometric elements....definitive Waray design elements. Also, there is a definite representation of a flower in the center of the scabbard....you would never see that on a Moro scabbard. As for photos, I've seen several excellent examples of Waray weapons such as pulajanes garabs posted here by several members of this forum to study and compare.

Regards,

Bangkaya
Bangkaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th June 2013, 06:03 AM   #29
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,685
Default

Bangkaya, you do have a good point of the flower not being in the middle of the scabbard of the typical Moro scabbard. I am with you with the gunong perhaps not being Moro, though I am still of the opinion that the piece may be later.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.