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Old 19th July 2017, 06:12 PM   #91
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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A few more pictures as a reminder of the Old Omani Battle Sword... The Sayf Yamaani.
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Old 19th July 2017, 06:43 PM   #92
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Ibrahiim,
We have seen these pictures before. They were posted right in this topic.
Perhaps, there is no need to re-post them.
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:59 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Ibrahiim,
We have seen these pictures before. They were posted right in this topic.
Perhaps, there is no need to re-post them.


Well I can live with a bit of repetition as a form of pictorial memory jogger... Perhaps you can find some more?
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AhmedH
Salaams Ibrahiim,

First of all: Happy New Year! Now then, I've really enjoyed this thread very much, and I liked your discussion with Iain regarding this issue.

Regarding the photos of those Omani swords, their shape, features, etc all date back to c. 600 CE ; not just 751 CE. In fact, I believe 751 CE would be TOO PRUDENT.

However, I still need to know the dimensions of the blades: whether in length, breadth, and thickness...along with the full weight of these swords minus their scabbards.

Any other info regarding these swords shall be highly appreciated, Sir.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Ahmed Helal Hussein


Dear Sir,

I would love to know how you connected this sword style to the 7th century AD with such determination.

Cheers!
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:40 PM   #95
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Dear Ibrahim,

Many thanks for the interesting topic I just happened to read through it for the first time.

Now as a researcher, with Arab weaponry being the field that I endeavor to increase my knowledge in, I have been focusing on pre-modern era Arab weapons as best as I could.

All the literature handed down to us by the likes of Al-Kindi, that has been gathered and analyzed by the likes of Prof. Abdulrahman Zaky, the poetry, the drawings in the manuscripts of the Abbasid period, the paintings within the Ummayad desert castles, indeed do portray swords.

We also have sword blades from the period that are intact, mainly in Istanbul and a certain blade in Cairo.

Unfortunately however, we have no definitive examples of hilts and scabbards from that era. The swords with original surviving hilts in Topkapi are all from the Mamluk era (I have also seen some in German Auctions), and one sword attributed to Najm Al Din Ayyub (Saladin's father) still retains its original crossguard, but the Arab swords of the earlier period have all been refitted with newer hilts and scabbards.

To note that Arab blades from that era were much longer than this Omani style; being mostly between 82-90cm long whereas I doubt that these swords exceed 80cm most of the time.

As much as I applaud your research within this field, we have yet to see a solid connection of this style of sword to the Abbasid period. Indeed it looks almost identical to the medieval Mamluk hilts, however Abbasid is and 751AD is 3 centuries earlier Ibrahim.

Even Robert Elgood with all the research he conducted, could not pinpoint the exact origin of these Omani swords, where they were made to be exact.

I do hope you strive to find more information about these swords and their origins, as with Arab weapons info is very hard to come by.

Apart from what was gathered by Abdulrahman Zaky, I have come to a dead stop in my research of the weapons of pre-modern Arabia, as nothing has survived.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:22 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi
Dear Ibrahim,

Many thanks for the interesting topic I just happened to read through it for the first time.

Now as a researcher, with Arab weaponry being the field that I endeavor to increase my knowledge in, I have been focusing on pre-modern era Arab weapons as best as I could.

All the literature handed down to us by the likes of Al-Kindi, that has been gathered and analyzed by the likes of Prof. Abdulrahman Zaky, the poetry, the drawings in the manuscripts of the Abbasid period, the paintings within the Ummayad desert castles, indeed do portray swords.

We also have sword blades from the period that are intact, mainly in Istanbul and a certain blade in Cairo.

Unfortunately however, we have no definitive examples of hilts and scabbards from that era. The swords with original surviving hilts in Topkapi are all from the Mamluk era (I have also seen some in German Auctions), and one sword attributed to Najm Al Din Ayyub (Saladin's father) still retains its original crossguard, but the Arab swords of the earlier period have all been refitted with newer hilts and scabbards.

To note that Arab blades from that era were much longer than this Omani style; being mostly between 82-90cm long whereas I doubt that these swords exceed 80cm most of the time.

As much as I applaud your research within this field, we have yet to see a solid connection of this style of sword to the Abbasid period. Indeed it looks almost identical to the medieval Mamluk hilts, however Abbasid is and 751AD is 3 centuries earlier Ibrahim.

Even Robert Elgood with all the research he conducted, could not pinpoint the exact origin of these Omani swords, where they were made to be exact.

I do hope you strive to find more information about these swords and their origins, as with Arab weapons info is very hard to come by.

Apart from what was gathered by Abdulrahman Zaky, I have come to a dead stop in my research of the weapons of pre-modern Arabia, as nothing has survived.


Salaams S.Al-Anizi, You are absolutely right. I too have arrived at a dead stop regarding information on this weapon. Most of the museums with a Sayf Yamaani example are known to me but none seem to pinpoint its origins though I am sure the closest will be in Istanbul at the Topkapi... Being called Sayf Yamaani may point to a Hadramaut origin but nothing is proven. I have to say that the only detective work we have in our favour is one of logical assessment: We know it must be earlier than first thought and crude ideas that it was a Portuguese sword or that its origins were in the 17th C were of course nonsense. Reasoned write ups have placed the weapon in the region of 1000 AD... Quite how that has been arrived at "Out of the Blue" has not been explained but I believe the direction is correct but falls short.

The periods in Omani History that need to be considered are After its conversion to Islam, Oman was ruled by Umayyads between 661–750, Abbasids between 750–931, 932–933 and 934–967, Qarmatians between 931–932 and 933–934, Buyids between 967–1053, and the Seljuks of Kirman between 1053–1154....combined with the 751AD date of the defenders through initially Ibn Julanda.

Thinking logically there was no reason to have a battle sword (adopted until today) appear in those timeframes unless it was a hugely important weapon. The only crucible for the appearance of a sword of that nature with an Islamic Hilt as the nations adopted battle sword was with Ibn Julanda... thus it takes on the appearance of a very early Sword of The Prophet ... Pre dating it 250 years before the year 1000 AD in fact is nothing since after that it has marched on until today more than another 1000 years. Moreover if it was indeed the Iconic religious weapon that I suspect then it may well precede 750 AD and be more in line with about 650 A.D.

Regretably there are no swords to compare in the Umayyad period as none seem to exist...so that we appear wedged in between the Abassid period and about 1000 AD... No weapons were buried with bodies and no examples of such an early sword exists..

We know that Saaid bin Sultan Iconized the hilt having it covered in silver like the Royal Khanjar in the 19th C and I have sketches of it on Sultan Bargash and a photo of it with The Ruler today. We also know that the Sayf Yamaani was used with the Omani Terrs shield and that this was the only battle Sword in the early era.

The words of the late Anthony North echo in the words he describes in Islamic Arms in his opening paragraph where he describes Islamic weapons as once accepted as effective so they hardly ever changed, thus, the vast timescale that the Sayf Yamaani continued to be made and used down the ages....and by no other warriors except the Omanis.

It is for these reasons that I suspect it was an Iconic Religious weapon( Ibaathi) and why it has stuck around for so long.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 20th July 2017 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 20th July 2017, 11:37 PM   #97
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An interesting reference can be seen at http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/08/1...islamic-swords/
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Old 21st July 2017, 01:22 AM   #98
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On inspection of The Maqamat (Stories of Arabia) of al-Hariri at

https://www.pinterest.com/mahboobee...period/?lp=true

I discovered in the manuscript artwork two instances of the straight sword with turned down quilons; One which is often quoted as being the sword Sayf Yamaani (with the two camels). The second picture also painted more than 1000 years ago shows the same style of weapon as the first ...

According to David Alexander, one of the leading experts on Islamic arms and armour where he describes a related sword in the Nasser D.K Khalili Collection in the book "The Arts of War" by David Alexander, swords of this type were used in Oman and the Gulf area from 1000 A.D. until the17th-18th century and can be seen in early Arab paintings such as a miniature in a copy of the Maqamat of al-Hariri, c.1225-35 A.D. For example an almost identical sword dated to the 12th-14th century is published in the Sotheby's catalogue of Islamic and Indian Art London 24-25 April 1991 lot 1113.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 09:27 PM   #99
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Please see the following research paper related generally to early Islamic swords~

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/ind.../viewFile/86/86

Note that the sword shown in the paper above and illustrated below is virtually identical to all the swords in the previous post. This is early 10thC ... and begs the question as to how long a sword needs to be in the public domain before it is Iconised with a place in the astrology charts.

Shown below;from the Suwar al-kawakib al-thabita of al-Sufi dated1009-10
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Old 23rd July 2017, 09:49 PM   #100
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Straight Swords on Coins.

Here I place a possible direct link between early Islamic sword form and the Sayf Yamaani; comparing the sword on coins from the period illustrated which is the key timescale in the 7thC to which I suggest our sword is related...and went on to become the Ibaathi weapon of 751 AD with Ibn Julanda...of Oman.

Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (Arabic: عبد الملك بن مروان‎‎ ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwān, 646 – 8 October 705)


was the 5th Umayyad caliph. He was born in Medina, Hejaz, Abd al-Malik was a well-educated man and capable ruler who was able to solve many political problems that impeded his rule. The 14th-century Muslim historian Ibn Khaldun stated that "`Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan is one of the greatest Arab and Muslim Caliphs. He followed in the footsteps of `Umar ibn al-Khattab, the Commander of the Believers, in regulating state affairs".

During his reign, all important records were translated into Arabic, and for the first time, a special currency for the Muslim world was minted, which led to war with the Byzantine Empire under Justinian II. The Byzantines were led by Leontios at the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692 in Asia Minor and were decisively defeated by al-Malik after the defection of a large contingent of Slavs. The Islamic currency was then made the only currency of exchange in the Muslim world. Also, many reforms happened in his time relating to agriculture and commerce. Al-Malik extended and consolidated Muslim rule, made Arabic the state language and organised a regular postal service.
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Old 27th July 2017, 05:13 AM   #101
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Interesting resemblance with a qattara in Mozarab-Spanish illustrations.

92a-b) Illustrations of ‘Sword of St. Peter’ and ‘Guards at the Holy Sepulche’ in the Avila Bible, Mozarab-Spanish 12-13 cent AD (Biblioteca Nacional, Ms. ER8, Madrid). 93) Carving of ‘St. James’, Spanish 12-13 cent AD (in situ Church of Santiago, Betanzos, La Coruña).
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Old 27th July 2017, 10:54 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo G
Interesting resemblance with a qattara in Mozarab-Spanish illustrations.

92a-b) Illustrations of ‘Sword of St. Peter’ and ‘Guards at the Holy Sepulche’ in the Avila Bible, Mozarab-Spanish 12-13 cent AD (Biblioteca Nacional, Ms. ER8, Madrid). 93) Carving of ‘St. James’, Spanish 12-13 cent AD (in situ Church of Santiago, Betanzos, La Coruña).


Salaams Gonzalo, I was watching the Jinetta thread and wondering about those sketches with the broadsword and turned down quilons. Well placed and food for thought especially with the artwork seen above from the astrology chart and the Makamat al Harriri. Well placed thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th July 2017, 02:59 AM   #103
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Salam aleikum, Ibrahiim.
I believe that your sword and the jineta have a common ancestry in the "classic" muslim sword.

Regards
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Old 28th July 2017, 05:05 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo G
Salam aleikum, Ibrahiim.
I believe that your sword and the jineta have a common ancestry in the "classic" muslim sword.

Regards



Salaams Gonzalo G ~ Whilst no one would disagree that there are subtle similarities and shades of partial mirroring there is no direct technical form or construction inherent in both that could be construed as deliberate technical transfer... so what are the similarities? ... remembering that we have virtually no examples of the original Jinetta to compare with. So we are comparing the Sayf Yamaani with the highly ornate precious metal and decidedly aristocratic VIP version whilst trying to imagine what a Jinetta battle sword should look like... Not easy. In addition no one has a clue as to where the Berber version came from.

Where I do agree that the Jinetta had down turned quillons it has to be said that so did a lot of weapons in that culture broadly. It can be said that both swords would have been worn on a Baldric over the shoulder. This can be said about all Islamic swords and going back to Swords of The Prophet where it is known that this was the preferred way it was worn....and it is how the Sayf Yamaani was carried and I believe how the Jinetta was carried and how that also seems to have developed with a saddle baldric in addition.

Nevertheless I do generally agree that similarities are present in both these concepts and I look forward to seeing more evidence in that regard..and I support the general idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th July 2017, 06:51 AM   #105
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Back to basics. What are the implications in sword hilt design on the Sayf Yamaani?

1. Dealing with the Quilons. My view is that these follow the basic concept of a moon shape simply constructed. Many pieces of Omani silver jewelery follow the same idea from necklaces to ear rings, half bangles, and danglers.. Silver Jewelery invokes the idea of The Moon. Gold is for the Sun. I place below the full hilt of the Sayf Yamaani and next to it a jade hilt from another region .. showing the moon phase....and dragon head finials. In addition a few examples of moon shaped Omani Silver to compare.

2. The hand grip. This grip is not tubular but octagonal and well worn. It illustrates the Minaret form.

3. The Pommel looks like the top part of the Minaret from which emanates the call to prayer. It is multi sided often 6 or 8 sides...and sometimes decorated in simple silver script.

The emphasis is on simplicity of Islamic design in keeping with Ibaathi principles. Staunch without over decoration but simple and pious. This provides part of the final bridge between 1000 AD and almost 4 centuries before that when I posit the Sayf Yamaani originally appeared in the same configuration... and remained the same until the 19th C.

For this reason I suggest the sword is Iconic with the Ibaathi concept and was accepted in about 650 AD in the same way as Swords of The Prophet were instrumental in other regions.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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