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Old 3rd August 2012, 06:38 AM   #31
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I havent really given it much thought :P



Its cloth. Wool I think. Will get pictures of the back side which has a slot for a work knife.



Possible, but whats your argument for that? I am personally not fussed about the age of this piece :P but I am interested in the rationale used to decide that the backside was once the front :-)


Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.

At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..

The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 3rd August 2012, 06:42 AM   #32
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Old 3rd August 2012, 06:54 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
The top left one featured in this thread.

linky

So obviosly from the Yemen.

spiral



Salaams Spiral ~ No not the jambia in row 1 but the two under that one...
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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 10:02 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.


argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration

Quote:
At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..


I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)

Quote:
The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy
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Old 3rd August 2012, 01:33 PM   #35
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My Dear Bro.
I have let the wave pass ...
before coming to congratulate you for this new acquisition
I'm especially happy for you because this dagger is belong to your roots,
and is an exceptional specimen

no need to add, anything, everything was said
otherwise that ... congratulations ... مبروك أخي

à +

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Old 3rd August 2012, 05:55 PM   #36
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Allah yebarek feek Dom thanks alot!
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Old 4th August 2012, 09:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration



I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)



I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy



Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.

On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.

This family has over 100 years of experience and when I am uncertain I go ask... Then when there is further uncertainty I hit the workshops...My entire team therefor get a crack at this. I think theres about 250 years experience altogether..The originator of the Khanjar died many years ago so for sure they dont make them like that anymore. It may contain pin styles long forgotten.

What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)

Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.

Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...
They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"

So good enough? There isn't any "proof" except from reverse engineering the hilt and adding the blend of very considerable experience ~ and bearing in mind not just the timeframe but the region. The proof, in fact, is being written as we develop the Forum... and as you have seen much of the work conducted on Omani ethnographic weapons is groundbreaking...If it was available in a book I would say so; if I so saw!

Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 5th August 2012 at 08:50 AM. Reason: reworked text
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Old 5th August 2012, 07:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.


There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)

Quote:
On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.


I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.

Quote:
What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)


This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.

Quote:
Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.


Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.

Quote:
Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...


Nothing wrong with that mate.

Quote:
They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"


I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure

Quote:
Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!
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Old 5th August 2012, 07:19 PM   #39
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=rhino

See post 14. I think its a similar pin design (front that is, no pictures of the back side)
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Old 6th August 2012, 07:22 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.



Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!



Salaams A.alnakkas ~ It appears that the leather strips have been replaced by wool.. ( I thought perhaps the leather had deteriorated ) Probably replaced when it broke down. It appears they also used strips of felt.

Artzis weapon is a Salalah style. It could be late 19th C. Nice pin work.

See The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 for a great reference on Rhino by Spiral plus the different names of Rhino of which Z'raf is a name applied here whilst the others appear to be used in the Yemen... and comparing the two regions I have no idea what percentage of hilts were Rhino in each but agree Yemeni work with Rhino hilt "seems" more common.

You state that Quote, (included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense.) Unquote.

~Please show me a full picture as what I see looks like it is not an Omani Khanjar but Habaabi... Southern corner of Saudia. It appears that Yemeni/Saudia construction of hilts often used those big pins where as in Oman they were much finer~ Searching about I see #25 and a full picture of the dagger to which you refer... Its Habaabi... Saudia.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 8th August 2012, 02:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.




Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!


Salaams ~ For library purposes the photo at the base of your post at #38 is not an Omani Khanjar but comes from Saudia Arabia in the region to the south whose main port is Jazzan and cities include Abha and Habaabi The latter giving its name to this dagger. Habaabi. The construction though they look quite similar to Omani Khanjars is on closer inspection markedly different employing other techniques typical on Yemeni work (It was part of the Yemen circa pre 1923..) Use of mixed silver/copper and slight differences in the design such as a slightly larger crown and in one variant a much narrower body to the entire item. Designs favour two large buttons culminating at a point normally ending under the central decorative ferrule in mid hilt. The buttons unlike Omani buttons are fastened with a large peg or pin.

It is not chrystal clear what the exact linkage is between this region and Oman though obviously as a port Jazzan would have been engaged in heavy sea trade with Muscat and Zanzibar and I suggest the latter as a more likely consideration for the infusion of this design after its invention by one of the wives of Said bin Sultan in about 1840 (Sheherazade the Persian Princess) because of the Sultans engagement with that area essentially bringing it under Omani rule. Equally imperfect is the relationship between the Omani Royal Khanjar and this Habaabi weapon and to what extent it draws its style from the Omani type as it could also be influenced by the Muscat Khanjar which is also a 7 ringer.

It is because of its geographical location (and timings of the design of the Royal Omani Khanjar) that I favour the Royal link but research is as yet not forthcoming to pinpoint the question for now. Another question is why was it linked to Habaabi and not say Jazzan the sea port?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:04 AM   #42
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on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter
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Old 9th August 2012, 02:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter


References;
A. Kattara for comments. from #300 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

B. The Omani Khanjar. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878

Salaams Dom,
Thank you for posting this detail. I know the author is well respected. May we have the full package of information to go with the pictures so we can put it into perspective please?
It will be seen that it is easy to confuse Habaabi daggers with Omani. Both styles of Habaabi have the 7 rings and one is fatter whilst the other is quite slender in the body.They look like Omani Khanjars.

The crown, however, tends to be slightly larger than the Omani. Typically the hilt has two facing large buttons with the pointed decoration often hidden under a central ferrule in mid hilt. The decorative style of the triangular net holding the lower scabbard steady on the belt is different in both styles.

This weapon is discussed at The Omani Khanjar in some detail with photos. My hypothesis on this almost identical design is that the Habaabi design was taken from the circa 1840 Royal Khanjar style designed by The Persian princess and wife of Said bin Sultan who reigned 1804 to his death off Zanzibar in 1856. Sheherazad was her name.

It is clear that no other Yemeni design exists with such strong similarity to an Omani Dagger (the area was Yemeni before circa 1920) and Scabbard and I quote the sea trade link and the proximity to Zanzibar and Muscat (and naturally the sea trade route between) as the main reason for the transmission of style..

I repeat that the two are easily confused.

Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 9th August 2012, 11:06 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.
Aleikum Salam Ibrahiim
ok ... I shall do it,
but previously ... I have to translate all comments ... from French to English
this is not the most exciting, but I gonna to do it, Inch'Allah

all the best

à +

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Old 10th August 2012, 11:04 AM   #45
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Good day
as I didn't acquired my English, from an academic school,
and as far as it's a very technical idiom used to describe edged weapons,
the translation is a real chore ("pensum") also, I took the precaution to add the French version
sorry if it's a little bit "rigmarole", I'm doing my best, but sometime even the best it's not enough ...
I will present one per day ... thanks for your understanding

979 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Same blade, rather piqued by rust.
horn handle, flourishing toward the blade and forming its hilt in the style of fifteenth-century Swiss daggers. The guard is surrounded by a silver ferrule which covers the heel of the blade and fits over the chape. This ferrule is decorated with filigree and the outside of the horn of the handle is topped with a tight sowing of silver nails.
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth decorated with trimmings of silver (both pretty tired). small silver locket, and silver chape more developed, and decorated with filigree work similar to the ferrule of the handle. This scabbard still bears the four silver rings which serve to secure it the belt and a part of the belt with its silver buckle.
The scabbard for this type of Djambyia, instead of following the curve of the blade like its predecessors, is bent at right angles
Complete weapon, tired, but interesting nonetheless because of the scarcity of Arab weapons
Long. : 0.315 - Blade: 0.205


979 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Même lame, assez piquée par la rouille.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant vers la lame et formant son pommeau dans le genre des dagues suisses du XVè siècle. La garde est entourée d’une virole en argent qui recouvre le talon de la lame et s’emboîte sur la chape du fourreau. Cette virole est décorée de filigranes et la face extérieure de la corne de la poignée est garnie d’un semis serré de clous d’argent.
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir décoré de passementeries d’argent (les deux assez fatigués). Courte bouterolle en argent uni et chape plus développe en argent et décorée d’un travail de filigrane semblable à celui de la virole de la poignée. Ce fourreau porte encore les quatre anneaux d’argent qui servent à l’assujettir à la ceinture et une partie de la ceinture avec sa boucle en argent.
Le fourreau de type Djambyia, au lieu de suivre la courbe de la lame comme les précédentes, se courbe à angle droit
Arme complète, fatiguée, mais intéressante néanmoins en raison de la rareté des armes arabes
Long. : 0,315 – Lame : 0,205

************************************************** ***********

980 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Blade same model, but better preserved.
Horn handle almost disappearing under the decor in silver filigree. Pommel trefoiled similarly decorated. The heel of the blade is surrounded by the silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth and decorated like the previous, with silver trimmings. Silver chape, highly developed on the outside with the same filigree decor. In the middle of the scabbard on a sort of central pad, four strongly silver rings forged, retained by silver filigrees, used to attach the weapon on the front part of the belt.
From the collection Moser, Charlottenfels Castle, Schaffhausen.
Ancient weapon, rare and quite complete, but slightly tired.
Long. : Lame 0.305: 0.190


980 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Lame de même modèle, mais mieux conservée.
Poignée en corne disparaissant presque sous le décor en filigrane d’argent. Pommeau trilobé pareillement décoré. Le talon de la lame est entouré de la virole d’argent qui recouvre l’épanouissement inférieur de la poignée et dans laquelle vient s’engager le fourreau : cette virole est aussi décorée de filigranes
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir et comme le précédent décoré de passementeries d’argent. Chape en argent, très développé du coté extérieur avec le même décor filigrané. Au milieu du fourreau sur une sorte de coussinet, quatre forts anneaux en argent forgés retenus par des filigranes d’argent, servent à fixer l’arme sur le devant de la ceinture.
Provient de la collection Moser, château de Charlottenfels, Schaffhouse.
Arme ancienne, rare et bien complète, mais légèrement fatiguée.
Long. : 0,305 Lame : 0,190

à +

Dom

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Old 10th August 2012, 02:40 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dom
Good day
as I didn't acquired my English, from an academic school,
and as far as it's a very technical idiom used to describe edged weapons,
the translation is a real chore ("pensum") also, I took the precaution to add the French version
sorry if it's a little bit "rigmarole", I'm doing my best, but sometime even the best it's not enough ...
I will present one per day ... thanks for your understanding

979 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Same blade, rather piqued by rust.
horn handle, flourishing toward the blade and forming its hilt in the style of fifteenth-century Swiss daggers. The guard is surrounded by a silver ferrule which covers the heel of the blade and fits over the chape. This ferrule is decorated with filigree and the outside of the horn of the handle is topped with a tight sowing of silver nails.
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth decorated with trimmings of silver (both pretty tired). small silver locket, and silver chape more developed, and decorated with filigree work similar to the ferrule of the handle. This scabbard still bears the four silver rings which serve to secure it the belt and a part of the belt with its silver buckle.
The scabbard for this type of Djambyia, instead of following the curve of the blade like its predecessors, is bent at right angles
Complete weapon, tired, but interesting nonetheless because of the scarcity of Arab weapons
Long. : 0.315 - Blade: 0.205


979 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Même lame, assez piquée par la rouille.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant vers la lame et formant son pommeau dans le genre des dagues suisses du XVè siècle. La garde est entourée d’une virole en argent qui recouvre le talon de la lame et s’emboîte sur la chape du fourreau. Cette virole est décorée de filigranes et la face extérieure de la corne de la poignée est garnie d’un semis serré de clous d’argent.
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir décoré de passementeries d’argent (les deux assez fatigués). Courte bouterolle en argent uni et chape plus développe en argent et décorée d’un travail de filigrane semblable à celui de la virole de la poignée. Ce fourreau porte encore les quatre anneaux d’argent qui servent à l’assujettir à la ceinture et une partie de la ceinture avec sa boucle en argent.
Le fourreau de type Djambyia, au lieu de suivre la courbe de la lame comme les précédentes, se courbe à angle droit
Arme complète, fatiguée, mais intéressante néanmoins en raison de la rareté des armes arabes
Long. : 0,315 – Lame : 0,205

à +

Dom


Salaams Dom ~ Thank you for presenting Buttins work in such excellent English and for taking the time and trouble to translate and post. I hope this gets easier as you proceed ~ Buttin had few examples of Omani and Arab work to display going by his last sentence Quote "en raison de la rareté des armes arabes" Unquote and I wonder if this weapon is actually Omani or Yemeni (Habaabi).

I think we will give Buttin the benefit of the doubt in this case! However, it appears too narrow in the body to be Omani... but I rest my case at this time on this item as it may be because of the photo quality in the original document..

It is absolutely excellent to have your translation and I thank you for adding this vital research to Forum.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 11th August 2012, 11:36 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I think we will give Buttin the benefit of the doubt in this case!
Salam Ibrahiim
all these consignments were made ​​there ± 110 years ago,
it's easy to imagine, that "Buttin" hadn't our communication facilities to corroborate his informations,
not like us actually with the "net"

"Buttin" has mentioned often, that some Islamic weapons are rare, (what it's not any more the case in our days ...)
but, travelers to Islamic countries of Middle-East, in this century was very few,
and some countries was more or less closed to Western peoples, or at least for non-Muslims
that might explain a little, imprecisions or perhaps even errors on some of his notes
I am well aware of that, but that don't challenge the value bibliographic of the book, in general

I will not allow me (I don't have the quality) to comment the written notes of "Buttin",
even if I found at my point of view sometimes strange interpretations
I strive to meet in my translation, to the mind, against the form of text,
no more

what I find most interesting in this book, is not so much the comments of "Buttin",
but physically, how they was looking like, these islamic edged weapons found about 150 years ago
this to me (us) can attempt to determine the oldest weapons forms, to the most recent,
however ... if possible

all the best my Friend

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Old 11th August 2012, 02:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Salam Ibrahiim
all these consignments were made ​​there ± 110 years ago,
it's easy to imagine, that "Buttin" hadn't our communication facilities to corroborate his informations,
not like us actually with the "net"

"Buttin" has mentioned often, that some Islamic weapons are rare, (what it's not any more the case in our days ...)
but, travelers to Islamic countries of Middle-East, in this century was very few,
and some countries was more or less closed to Western peoples, or at least for non-Muslims
that might explain a little, imprecisions or perhaps even errors on some of his notes
I am well aware of that, but that don't challenge the value bibliographic of the book, in general

I will not allow me (I don't have the quality) to comment the written notes of "Buttin",
even if I found at my point of view sometimes strange interpretations
I strive to meet in my translation, to the mind, against the form of text,
no more

what I find most interesting in this book, is not so much the comments of "Buttin",
but physically, how they was looking like, these islamic edged weapons found about 150 years ago
this to me (us) can attempt to determine the oldest weapons forms, to the most recent,
however ... if possible

all the best my Friend

à +

Dom



Salaams Dom~ You are correct indeed about the difficulties of research on these weapons at that time. Actually getting to visit some of the countries over 100 years ago would have been at best dangerous and even in the 1940s and 1950s travel into the Interior of Oman was extremely dodgey... according to Thesiger. The lack of information combined with the state of the Oman which was in decline until 1970 must have made study of this sort almost impossible. I find it quite difficult even now! What must it have been like then?
It is very convenient to be able to present an item for discussion to Forum and instantly reach many hundreds of enthusiastic specialists and scholars such as yourself who are willing to give up their time to promote our chosen field.
I had hoped that Buttins work would have passed copyright by now as has Burtons work which is freely available on the web but I see that Buttin has been rewritten under his grandson quite recently...It goes on my vast list of books I must have !
One thing is certain that what Khanjars looked like 100 years ago here in Oman .... for sure thats what they looked like 500 years ago and earlier.
Thank you Dom...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 12th August 2012, 05:19 PM   #49
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981 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)
Blade always the same type as the previous, but with a curious feature.
It is sharpen with a hammer as well as scythe blades, hammered the convex edge toward the outer side and concave toward on the interior side.
Hilt of the richest model, entirely in silver and decorated with applied of filigrees very fine and very elegant. The pommel has a particular form with two conical ears on the side, turned in towards the handle.
The hilt, same "encapage" for the scabbard upper part, as well as two previous weapons. (Cf. "encapage" old French word, completely obsolete, want to mean, in reference to the two previous descriptions,
"silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree"
The scabbard covered by red leather sheath on the interior side, is, on the outer side, fully in silver gilt covered with silver filigrees as the handle.
The chape and the locket, draw for one a square, and the other a trapezoid, with filigree designs going in diminishing. The middle of the scabbard shows a drawing of scales repelled.
Seven silver rings wrought used to attach the weapon to the belt are ligatured with silver cords.

Weapon in excellent condition and extremely rare
Long: 0.32 - Blade: 0.200
See Moser catalog, No. 544, pl. XXI

981 – POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)
Lame toujours du même type que les précédentes, mais présentant une particularité curieuse. Elle est aiguisée au marteau comme les lames de faux, le tranchant convexe martelé du coté extérieur et le concave du coté intérieur.
Poignée du modèle le plus riche, entièrement en argent et décoré d’appliques de filigranes très fines et très élégantes. Le pommeau de forme particulière à deux oreilles coniques sur le coté, rabattues vers la poignée. À la garde, même encapage du haut du fourreau qu’aux deux armes précédentes.
Le fourreau en cuir rouge du coté intérieur, est, du coté extérieur, entièrement en argent doré revêtu de filigranes d’argent comme la poignée. La chape et la bouterolles dessinent l’une un carré, l’autre un trapèze, en filigrane à dessins décroissants. Le milieu du fourreau présente un dessin en écailles repoussées.
Sept anneaux en argent forgé pour fixer l’arme à la ceinture sont ligaturés avec des cordelettes en argent.
Arme en excellent état et de très grande rareté
Long : 0,32 - Lame : 0,200
Cf. catalogue Moser, N° 544, pl. XXI

************************************************** ***********

982 - ARAB DAGGER (Djambyia), eighteenth century or early nineteenth (Pl. XXX)

Wide blade Arabic forged: double edged, midrib softened, but very salient, over the entire length.
Straight heel, the blade is curved sharply to the middle, and tapers from there to provide the tip.
Horn handle, flourishing along the lines normal to the blade and form a pommel in axe head.
It is on its outer face coated with a silver plate decorated with three rosettes repelled.
Unlike previous ones, this is the low part of the ferrule of handle that enters in the chape of the scabbard.
The wooden scabbard covered with brown leather does not have the right angle bend, but also moreover much more curved than the previous ones, in a regular circle arc.
It has a chape engraved silver, filigreed, and nielloed on the outside face and three roses in silver repelled.
This scabbard is caught between two strips of leather combined with a cloth belt.
The outer strap is decorated with an engraved silver plate and silver thread in spiral ;

Weapon well complete and in fair condition;
Long: 0.290 Blade: 0.185


982 – POIGNARD ARABE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle ou début XIXè (Pl. XXX)

Lame très large de forge arabe : deux tranchants, arête centrale adoucie mais très saillante sur toute la longueur. Droite au talon, la lame se courbe brusquement vers le milieu, et se rétrécit depuis là pour fournir la pointe.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant suivant les lignes habituelles vers la lame et formant un pommeau en forme de fer de hache. Elle est sur sa face extérieure revêtue d’une plaque d’argent décorée de trois rosaces repoussées. Contrairement aux précédents, c’est le bas de la virole de la poignée qui s’engage dans la chape du fourreau.
Le fourreau en bois recouvert de cuir marron n’a pas le coude à angle droit, mais se courbe plus encore d’ailleurs que les précédents, en un arc de cercle régulier.
Il porte une chape en argent gravé, filigrané, et niellé sur sa face extérieure et trois rosaces en argent repoussé.
Ce fourreau est pris entre deux lanières de cuir réunies à une ceinture d’étoffe.
La lanière extérieure est décorée d’une plaque en argent gravé et de fils d’argent en spirale.

Arme bien complète et en assez bon état ;
Long : 0,290 Lame : 0,185

************************************************** ***********

end of the commitment

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Old 12th August 2012, 05:56 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I had hoped that Buttins work would have passed copyright by now as has Burtons work which is freely available on the web but I see that Buttin has been rewritten under his grandson quite recently...
Thanks Ibrahiim to care about our abilities to publish or not Buttins's work
in France, the Law is very clear,

- is reputed from public field, whatever it is and have been wrote or published since over 70 years started after the death of the writter

- Charles Buttin, died before that his book be published, in fact it's his son François, using all his father's notes,
who has published the "Catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes européennes et orientales de Charles Buttin

- this catalogue has been printed and published in 1933 (Rumilly), that mean that in 2004, no measures of copyrighted

- the book with me, is one from the first impression, with a special dedication (not for me - dated 1956) from François Buttin his son

a priori, I see no impediment, at what I did
excepted that the book has a cost-prohibitive
and, to do a complete copy, will be not fair at all for those who bought it

all the best

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Old 12th August 2012, 06:28 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
981 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)
Blade always the same type as the previous, but with a curious feature.
It is sharpen with a hammer as well as scythe blades, hammered the convex edge toward the outer side and concave toward on the interior side.
Hilt of the richest model, entirely in silver and decorated with applied of filigrees very fine and very elegant. The pommel has a particular form with two conical ears on the side, turned in towards the handle.
The hilt, same "encapage" for the scabbard upper part, as well as two previous weapons. (Cf. "encapage" old French word, completely obsolete, want to mean, in reference to the two previous descriptions,
"silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree"
The scabbard covered by red leather sheath on the interior side, is, on the outer side, fully in silver gilt covered with silver filigrees as the handle.
The chape and the locket, draw for one a square, and the other a trapezoid, with filigree designs going in diminishing. The middle of the scabbard shows a drawing of scales repelled.
Seven silver rings wrought used to attach the weapon to the belt are ligatured with silver cords.

Weapon in excellent condition and extremely rare
Long: 0.32 - Blade: 0.200
See Moser catalog, No. 544, pl. XXI

981 – POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)
Lame toujours du même type que les précédentes, mais présentant une particularité curieuse. Elle est aiguisée au marteau comme les lames de faux, le tranchant convexe martelé du coté extérieur et le concave du coté intérieur.
Poignée du modèle le plus riche, entièrement en argent et décoré d’appliques de filigranes très fines et très élégantes. Le pommeau de forme particulière à deux oreilles coniques sur le coté, rabattues vers la poignée. À la garde, même encapage du haut du fourreau qu’aux deux armes précédentes.
Le fourreau en cuir rouge du coté intérieur, est, du coté extérieur, entièrement en argent doré revêtu de filigranes d’argent comme la poignée. La chape et la bouterolles dessinent l’une un carré, l’autre un trapèze, en filigrane à dessins décroissants. Le milieu du fourreau présente un dessin en écailles repoussées.
Sept anneaux en argent forgé pour fixer l’arme à la ceinture sont ligaturés avec des cordelettes en argent.
Arme en excellent état et de très grande rareté
Long : 0,32 - Lame : 0,200
Cf. catalogue Moser, N° 544, pl. XXI

************************************************** ***********

982 - ARAB DAGGER (Djambyia), eighteenth century or early nineteenth (Pl. XXX)

Wide blade Arabic forged: double edged, midrib softened, but very salient, over the entire length.
Straight heel, the blade is curved sharply to the middle, and tapers from there to provide the tip.
Horn handle, flourishing along the lines normal to the blade and form a pommel in axe head.
It is on its outer face coated with a silver plate decorated with three rosettes repelled.
Unlike previous ones, this is the low part of the ferrule of handle that enters in the chape of the scabbard.
The wooden scabbard covered with brown leather does not have the right angle bend, but also moreover much more curved than the previous ones, in a regular circle arc.
It has a chape engraved silver, filigreed, and nielloed on the outside face and three roses in silver repelled.
This scabbard is caught between two strips of leather combined with a cloth belt.
The outer strap is decorated with an engraved silver plate and silver thread in spiral ;

Weapon well complete and in fair condition;
Long: 0.290 Blade: 0.185


982 – POIGNARD ARABE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle ou début XIXè (Pl. XXX)

Lame très large de forge arabe : deux tranchants, arête centrale adoucie mais très saillante sur toute la longueur. Droite au talon, la lame se courbe brusquement vers le milieu, et se rétrécit depuis là pour fournir la pointe.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant suivant les lignes habituelles vers la lame et formant un pommeau en forme de fer de hache. Elle est sur sa face extérieure revêtue d’une plaque d’argent décorée de trois rosaces repoussées. Contrairement aux précédents, c’est le bas de la virole de la poignée qui s’engage dans la chape du fourreau.
Le fourreau en bois recouvert de cuir marron n’a pas le coude à angle droit, mais se courbe plus encore d’ailleurs que les précédents, en un arc de cercle régulier.
Il porte une chape en argent gravé, filigrané, et niellé sur sa face extérieure et trois rosaces en argent repoussé.
Ce fourreau est pris entre deux lanières de cuir réunies à une ceinture d’étoffe.
La lanière extérieure est décorée d’une plaque en argent gravé et de fils d’argent en spirale.

Arme bien complète et en assez bon état ;
Long : 0,290 Lame : 0,185

************************************************** ***********

end of the commitment

à +

Dom



Salaams Dom ~ First thank you for this great translation and for enhancing the Forum library with such an excellent document from Buttin.

I suspect that 981 is the Royal Khanjar which was designed for Said Bin Sultan in about 1840 thus mid 19th C but which is attributed by Buttin to the 18C. This is understandable since it depends upon the condition of the item which could easily mask the age. Certainly his description is for the Royal Omani Khanjar variant.

I think it is widely acknowledged that in those days it was extremely difficult to obtain examples which he describes as very rare. As an example it is worth viewing the see-saw political goings on between the French and British for 3 centuries leading up to the start of the 20th C. Neither them nor anyone else were able to gain a permanent base or political foothold in Muscat making it a virtually closed country for several centuries, locked from outside influence until about 1970. See "The French and British in the Indian Ocean by Dr. Sheikh Sultan bin Qassimi".
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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