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Old 15th June 2012, 12:51 PM   #1
SwordsAntiqueWeapons
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Default Dime el Aterro

I am hoping someone can point to exacting origins of sword blades carrying the stamp

* Dime ~ El * Aterro *

* Dime ~ El *
* Aterro*

I have seen it in both the layouts above with the first appearing to be much older and with differing text and star stamps than the second one...perhaps an indication that the mark or guild has been around for a very long time....I am guessing 17th and 18th centuries.

Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks

Gavin
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Old 15th June 2012, 06:00 PM   #2
fernando
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I Gav,
May i turn the complicometer on?
Have you seen this?
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=4803
What does a name that sounds Spanish in an Indian sword ? in the minimum, bizarre .
Alright, it could be, or is indeed, a trade (Firangi) blade.
Dime, besides being the $ ten cent, would mean 'tell me' in Castillian. El Aterro would mean the 'landfill' (embankment). But we know that persons names are not necessarily translatable.
I wish you luck with this one .


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Last edited by fernando : 15th June 2012 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 15th June 2012, 10:17 PM   #3
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Lightbulb The literal translation

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the Spanish interpretation.

Literally meaning there might be something in the naming you have provided but bear with me on my little journey.

I find it interesting the separation of stars. Not unknown to other type of trade blades but the stars typically indicated punctuation.

If we follow the stars as punctuation, the translation is very literal and holds perfect meaning with swords;

Dime El = "Say to Me"
Alterro = "I pull down"

I would want this invocation on my sword, it would make me feel pretty confident.

Google will only unearth the link you have provided and this version of the marking is in my opinion the newer version based on the others I have viewed.

I am certain these are Trade blades, I have one with a massive 41 inch blade in a stunning Khanda hilt.

While Spanish is language, I believe these likely entered India through Portuguese trade and ports.

Perhaps others can also chime in, perhaps provenance swords are known within European circles.

Gav
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Old 17th June 2012, 02:05 PM   #4
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Judging by what i usualy observe, the application of stars (asteriscs) has a more esthectical than punctuation sense ... i don't know.
Assuming that the wording in the blade is a motto, like those often appearing in navajas, a few allegories may extracted from this one.
The verb 'Aterrar' may also be interpreted as demolishing, burying, cover with earth, frightening ...
So from here you can speculate on various forms, like:
Tell me and i bury.
Tell me and i strike.
Tell me and i knock down.
How's that for an approach ?
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Old 18th June 2012, 11:21 AM   #5
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Question

Thanks Fernando....the approach I am after....more the angle of my opening query...Some more;

Whilst the "Motto" appears Spanish, is the blade?

Where did it come from?

Is it German or similar with a foreign mark to the blade?

Was the motto to stay in vogue and cutting edge at the time, ie; a marketing concept?

Was the stamp just a trader's stamp, blade made in one place, bought by someone and stamped by him/them and sent for export by that person/s?

Are there swords or sword blades of a pure EU or Hispanic ilk that carry this mark?

I have looked through some of Blairís work nothing yet, I'll look through Wallace collection again, try Wagner later in the week and perhaps Caravana later too....just throwing it out there in the hope someone more versed in EU blades may have already crossed this bridge....my library isn't geared for EU blades...

Gav
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Old 18th June 2012, 04:55 PM   #6
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Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation.

The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting.
* DIME & EL *
* ATERRO *
I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols
like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others.

The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name.

On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that.
The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree.

I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable.

All the best,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 19th June 2012 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 19th June 2012, 06:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined...

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 19th June 2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 19th June 2012, 10:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.



Thanks for that Fernando, live and learn
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