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Old 12th June 2012, 02:52 PM   #31
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.



Salaams kahnjar1 Please do not get me wrong on this ... Im not trying to be clever.. A whole lot of folks ( even here) are unfamiliar with the borders of these three countries which are stil ill defined and for many years have had little or no access. I even refer to peripheral areas of adjoining countries myself... forgetting that Saudia border areas are utterly moonlike in landscape and no fixed habitation exists for hundreds of miles. Criss crossing this region are the infrequent tribes,(like al Murrah) though, this doesn't constitute a fixed ethnographic base for artefacts. Where there is a lot of cross border leakage both ways is Oman/Yemen since the tribes straddle the border. I think this is where this dagger is likely to have been used and later, according to the new owner, it has been traded through a Kuwaiti dealer... perhaps gathered in Salalah.
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Old 12th June 2012, 03:05 PM   #32
A.alnakkas
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Ibrahim,

I didnt get this from a Kuwaiti dealer, rather from an American online.

When I mentioned that Kuwaiti dealers buy rhino khanjars from Oman I wasnt specifically speaking about this khanjar but about the other examples that exist in Kuwait mainly of normal Omani shape or the 'royal' hilt type which has horn like silver decoration.

Infact, you can check Artzi's site for a few Saidi type 'royal' hilts with rhino similar to this.
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Old 12th June 2012, 03:15 PM   #33
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Ibrahim,

I didnt get this from a Kuwaiti dealer, rather from an American online.

When I mentioned that Kuwaiti dealers buy rhino khanjars from Oman I wasnt specifically speaking about this khanjar but about the other examples that exist in Kuwait mainly of normal Omani shape or the 'royal' hilt type which has horn like silver decoration.

Infact, you can check Artzi's site for a few Saidi type 'royal' hilts with rhino similar to this.



ok so its from outside... so no clues as to provenance from that angle..It rather throws the evidence. I think the trail ends thereabouts. Any other clues?.. No clues from the seller? I looked at artzi and 11657 and was reminded of the preference for rhino even on a number of virtually 90% silver covered Royal khanjar hilts.. the top hilt silver button arrangement on that reference is very similar to yours... My guestimate of provenance rests somewhere between Southern Oman/ Yemen in its useage and Muscat in its manufacture... The blade however... no idea...maybe India ?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 12th June 2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12th June 2012, 09:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

"Originally Posted by spiral

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it... "

Spiral
Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Bonjour Ibrahim!

My "expertise" with wood is minimal, sadley, Its a process of work or recognition & rejection based opn key cards.... & a few get remebered of course & the basic growth structures of wood sometimes remembered.

There a many thousands of commercial species, I would merly recognise a few hundred. {Of course the undestading & use of keys can with enough time recognise any commercial species.If one puts enough hours in.} If the species is uncommercial then its on to those Fedral labs. Kew garden types who have non commercial species ID. cards as well.

But thank you for understanding my stance, I couldnt see why you couldnt see it, For many reasons I was relieved when you did.

You took my stance well I think..

Shukran!

Spiral
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Old 13th June 2012, 04:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Just finished on eBay but I forgot to bid . Looks like the hilt is wood the whole packacge seems a mix of Yemen and or Omani ?


Breakthrough !!!

Salaams Lew, A Al Nakkas, Spiral, Atlantia, Khanjar 1 and all interested parties in this discussion. I have been staring at this little conundrum for many days on and off.. something just not right... so it is with some relief that I can now tell everyone what this weird number actually is. At the same time I am able to clear up one thorny issue over the terminology "Habaabi" aluded to by me on several occasions on details in other threads but never able til now to nail it correctly..

Personally I have had the run around after information on this subject thinking (based on rumour and other peoples supposition here in Oman) that Habaabi was a generic term applied to several tracts of Saudia when in fact it only applies to one region..It is the name of an actual place in the South and fits with the origin of species of the daggers at my thread "The Omani Khanjar"... It used to be in the Yemen but was incorporated into Saudia about 90 years ago. The style appears to have migrated as a copied in design after the Royal Omani Khanjar, Muscat from perhaps the mid 19th C.

It is very specific in that its design is quite unlike any other Yemeni (or Saudia variant), however, is parallel in style in almost all aspects to the Omani Royal Khanjar.

The seaport of Jazan was a major trading sealink with Muscat. The new design of Royal Kkanjar would have easily found preference there since Jazan is on the through trade route to and from Zanzibar as well as being itself an important trade port link.

I am delighted to report to Forum that what we have here is The Original form Habaabi Khanjar on a Rhino hilt. It forms a benchmark for the original style of dagger from that region and all over the Jazan.

The Habaabi Khanjar.

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Old 22nd June 2012, 12:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
.................................................. .........

Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Namaste Ibrahim!

PerhapsI recomend the book "The Art of Rhinoceros Horn Carving in China" by Jan Chapman to you Ibrahiim.

Although not perfect it has many excelent photos demonstrating genuine Rhino horn grain, growth styles etc. Also a small section on fake horns.

I am sure you would find it interesting & helpfull, Given your earlier opinions re the both horn in this & the "Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar " thread by Archer.

Regards
Spiral
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Old 22nd June 2012, 02:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Namaste Ibrahim!

PerhapsI recomend the book "The Art of Rhinoceros Horn Carving in China" by Jan Chapman to you Ibrahiim.

Although not perfect it has many excelent photos demonstrating genuine Rhino horn grain, growth styles etc. Also a small section on fake horns.

I am sure you would find it interesting & helpfull, Given your earlier opinions re the both horn in this & the "Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar " thread by Archer.

Regards
Spiral



Salaams Spiral ~ Interesting reference indeed. I am all for that. Naturally we try to switch to composite or non rare horn but the demand is still high for the rare stuff sadly... and since almost single handedly Yemeni daggers, though, I'm afraid Omani too... have caused a great demise in the Rhino population which faces extinction. After all, composite hilts accept all the pins in exactly the same way as Rhino...or Elephant. Local people, however, think I'm mad to even consider it. It would be interesting to see Mamoth tusk used on Khanjars but it has never been done to my knowledge... There was a half rumour drifting about that Giraffe hoof was also used but I need to see that to analyse etc... It doesn't help that the local Arabic term for Rhino is Z'raff !
Actually Rhino hilt in Oman is usually very simple to spot since the edges are nearly always translucent which is easy to see with a powerful pen torch. I'm rambling on a bit here but I haven't dropped the baton quite...

I'm just trying to manouvre it around to try to persuade you to run a disertation on Rhino horn since you have the book and I don't and the chances of it being stocked out here are totally zero!

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Old 23rd June 2012, 11:56 AM   #38
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Thank you But there people more informed than I to do such work I am sure on this forum.

Re. your ID of this jambiya it seems to match with "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

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Old 24th June 2012, 04:43 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Thank you But there people more informed than I to do such work I am sure on this forum.

Re. your ID of this jambiya it seems to match with "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

Spiral



Salaams Spiral ~ Well you certainly seem quite well informed to me ! Brilliant addition of this reference(not previously known to me) thank you. Do continue to post ~ I deduce from your style and input that you have the ethno detective in your blood ... Bravo !! Encore !!!

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Old 24th June 2012, 04:57 AM   #40
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Salaams~ Note to Forum, following on from the above post :

Quote "Biography.
Schuyler Van Rensselaer Cammann was born in New York city in 1912 and attended St. Paul's School (Long Island) and Kent School (Connecticut). He received his B.A. from Yale (1935), M.A from Harvard (1941), and Ph.D. (1949) from John Hopkins, where he studied under Owen Lattimore. Both the M.A. and Ph.D. were in Asian History. From 1935 to 1941 he taught English in the Yale-in-China program, and served as a Lieutenant in the U.S. Navy during World War II stationed in Washington D. C., western China and Mongolia. In 1948 Cammann joined the faculty of the Department of Oriental Studies at the University of Pennsylvania where he remained until his retirement in 1982. From 1948 till 1955 he was Associate Curator of the East Asian Collections for the University Museum. During his tenure at the museum he was a member of excavation teams at Gordion (Turkey) and Kunduz (Afghanistan). Also during that time he was a member of the panel for the popular T.V. program "What in the World" (1951 55). Important professional organization positions included Vice-President of the American Oriental Society and editor of its journal; President of the Philadelphia Anthropological Society and Philadelphia Oriental Club; fellow of the American Learned Societies and the American Anthropological Association.

Professor Cammann wrote, lectured, taught, and consulted in several geographic areas (including China, Tibet, Mongolia, Japan) on such topics as textiles, carpets, art, ivory, snuff bottles, magic squares, and symbolism. He authored four books and numerous articles and reviews, and presented considerable number of lectures to various meetings, organizations and conferences. After his retirement he continued to write as well as conduct several tours in Asia.

Schuyler Van Rensselaer Cammann died in an auto accident near his summer home in Sugar Hill, New Hampshire on September 10, 1991." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; In 1977 he made a visit and observations of Yemeni Daggers ~ see The Cult of The Jambiyya http://www.penn.museum/documents/pu...9-2/Cammann.pdf
(What is not so often known are his treatise upon Islamic and Indian squares.)

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 24th June 2012 at 05:16 AM.
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