Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th November 2005, 02:39 PM   #1
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default Golok or Pedang (Indonesian)

tho my collection consists mainly of filipino weapons, every now and then, i would see other malay blades that i think are just plain beautiful. although im not familiar with it, i'd go ahead and acquire it, and then try to learn more about it. i guess that's part of being a collector. also i reckon, reading other's posts in regards to the neighboring countries' weapons kinda stoke my interest.

here's my latest acquistion:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=7715579036

i realize this link will self desruct into a blind post in a couple of months, so i will post pictures when i recieve the item.

so to our indo weapon collectors, care to make comment on this piece; i.e. age and provenance? also, what is the correct term for this piece? thanks in advance...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 03:20 PM   #2
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Smile

This is a Pedang Spunjer .
The forms are numerous .
Sumatran perhaps .

I've got one of these clad in thin low grade silver ; the blade's a little different (thick and wedge shaped) ; shorter at 17" . The tip curves down to meet the upcurving edge . My example has a much more pamor like blade with no fuller and is shaving sharp .
A slight draw and snap of the wrist and it'll pickle chip a pool noodle effortlessly .
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Rick : 26th November 2005 at 05:38 PM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 03:29 PM   #3
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

I agree with Rick (i'm such a suck-up ), I would say this pedang is Sumatran based on the hilt design. Nice looking sword.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 05:43 PM   #4
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
I agree with Rick (i'm such a suck-up


Sure you are wise guy .

I added a couple of pictures so I'm bumping this thread up .
Nechesh , remember we were discussing the re-use of the old lacquer 78 rpm records ?

I wonder about the material this Garuda hilt is carved from .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 07:15 PM   #5
RobT
Member
 
RobT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 231
Default Makara

Hi all,
From more than one source I have heard this type of hilt called a makara which is a mythological beast that is part elephant, bird and fish. The Indonesian guy that sold me mine said it was from Java. Whether the blade was made there or that's just where he got it I don't know.
Sincerely,
RobT
RobT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 09:19 PM   #6
RhysMichael
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 521
Default

I have also heard it called a makara but always had it attributed to Sumatra, though the term makara also is used with tibetan blades for a crocodile

Here is some good information on the makara
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/naga.htm
You can see some here
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ot...m_perak_voc.htm

Here is the one I have. It appears to be carved from horn but I do not know what type

RhysMichael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 09:28 PM   #7
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Rob, Jawa and Sumatran courts have shared much in common in the making of weapons for some time and the keris from the Palembang court took it's cues from Javanese styles. IMO this makara is very Sumatran in form. I would be willing to bet that is this pedang's source.
Sure Rick, i remember the discussion, but do you haqve any reason to suspect this one isn't made from horn.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 09:30 PM   #8
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Smile Makara

Dominique Buttin has an interesting page regarding the Makara on his site :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/naga.htm

Here's a nifty little Sumatran knife with a vegetal (to me they look like opening flowers) form hilt and scabbard.

And a head on shot of my pedang hilt ; the bird form is easier to see from this angle .
Attached Images
  
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 09:42 PM   #9
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Talking While I Was Taking Pictures

A bunch of people responded and I see that Dominique's site has been listed too !

Nechesh , the reason I'm a leetle suspicious of this material is that it's uniformly jet black , as is the material on the small knife .

I remain a little skeptical about some of these hilts actually being interpretations of the Makara .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 10:27 PM   #10
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I remain a little skeptical about some of these hilts actually being interpretations of the Makara .


I agree Rick, i think some of them are more abstract vegetative forms. I see what you mean about that hilt, though it would be tough to know without handling it.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2005, 11:57 PM   #11
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,225
Default

I agree that it is difficult to tell if it is a representation of a makara or not, especially since they need to use the vegitable motifs instead of images outright to keep the Islamic principle in the Qur'an against graven images. Same idea applies to the Malasians and Moros. Think of the cockatu bird head made of stylized vegitable (okir) designs. I know that Java and Sumatra are Muslim areas.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2005, 05:01 AM   #12
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

wow! thanks for the lively response, lol. really learning a lot about this piece from reading everyone's posts... also, thanks for the links.
my next question is; is there a way to know the age of this sword whether if it's an older one or a later type?
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 12:58 AM   #13
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

here's the pedang. i hope that with the close up, i can gather some more info. i also included a shot of the blade which seems to have a nice pamor. is there a way to bring this up even more? do i etch it the same way i would etch a moro sword?
Attached Images
        
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 01:19 AM   #14
RobT
Member
 
RobT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 231
Default silver collar?

Hi all,
Am I correct in thinking that Spunjer's hilt is missing one or two silver collars? I know some of these hilts don't get them but don't those have more ornate carving around the neck of the pommel?
Sincerely,
RobT
RobT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 01:24 AM   #15
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Smile

If the scabbard and fittings are original to the sword I'd guess not (just an opinion) .

That's a very interesting feather-like pattern on the blade ; I like it !
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 03:06 AM   #16
Boedhi Adhitya
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 103
Default

I also had believed that this pedang came from Sumatera, but since I saw this pedang brought by local dealers from Lombok island while I was on keris exhibition in Bali last year, I was 'forced' to believe that this blade came from Lombok, not Sumatera. They brought nearly a sackful of this pedang, and some of them in newly made fitting with old blades. Even some relatively new, non-madura blade exist. The local dealer's 'hunting ground' is exclusively Lombok, and since Bali and Lombok is a nearby neighbouring islands, I saw them kept bringing freshly acquaired stuff nearly everyday, and made my 'keris fever' coming again.
The Lombok origins, perhaps, may explain the 'makara' look-like handle

best regards,

Boedhi Adhitya
Boedhi Adhitya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 10:15 AM   #17
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

salamat, boedhi!
in your opinion, would this be an older piece, or a newer one?

btw, here are the dimension:
total length (in scabbard)= 30"
total length (sword)= 29"
blade length= 23"
handle= 6"

btw, i took the liberty to polish the silver fittings on the scabbard and hilt...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2005, 03:40 PM   #18
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,762
Smile Sasak ?

Greetings Boedhi , thank you for the input !

The fellow who sold me my example many years ago also said that he purchased his in Lombok .

Do you suppose this is a sword of the Sasak people ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2005, 05:50 AM   #19
Boedhi Adhitya
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 103
Default

Dear Spunjer,
IMHO, you have a nice older blade, with a nice pamor pattern Balinese called 'Tambangan' (tambang=rope). I've heard that this pattern is a favourite one especially in Bali/Lombok area while in Java, many Javanese would avoid it since it look likes the 'Buntel Mayit' pattern, not a good one. But yours isn't Buntel Mayit since it has a steel core. I believe it would look more beautiful if you etch it properly. Good Luck!

Dear Rick,
I don't know for sure that this sword is exclusively used by Sasak people. I didn't ask the dealer for detail, while some of them, in fact, were Sasak Men. Well, too busy and dizzy watching (and sorting ) the blades. Sorry.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya
Boedhi Adhitya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2005, 10:55 AM   #20
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

I've always seen pedangs with this sort of hilt being attributed to Sumatra, and Adni manages to find a lot of these on his sourcing trips to Sumatra too. However, I would not be surprised that the Makara is a motif that has spread throughout Indonesia and Malaysia, given the pervasive Indian influences in the past.

I attach pictures of a Badik Makara carved by Mr Nik Rashidee. The posture of the Makara is reminiscent of the abstract Makara that you see on the pedangs.

Apparently, the collar of some sewar sheaths are also representations of the Makara with the trunk curled over the head.

The Makara is the vehicle of the goddess Ganga, and in India, it has been described as a sea monster with parts of many different animals, including the body of a crocodile. However, the Makara in southeast asia invariably always have features of an elephant. Some other parts commonly found on the southeast asian makara include tail of a fish, horns of a goat, tusks of a wild boar. Some versions also include the crown of a king.

Talking about the kakatua, some sewar and pedangs have abstract representations of the kakatua too. Look at this tumbuk lada, for instance. It looks like leaves and 'jantung pisang' (literally, heart of the banana - its the phallic-shaped part of the banana bunch) put together, but then, there's a kakatua form hidden in it.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

And then, there are the Moro kris and barong with the kakatua form on the pommel, and perhaps on the sheath too.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php
Attached Images
  
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2005, 02:08 PM   #21
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

once again, thanks Boedhi....

BluErf,

your collection looks great! do you have any other picture of your moro kris?
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2005, 02:18 PM   #22
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

The Badik Makara is not in my collection. More pictures of my Moro kris can be found here:

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_album.php

Go to pg 4 of the album. I think you may have seen the blade before because this kris was posted on this forum before.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2005, 02:54 PM   #23
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,702
Default

yeah, that's the same one... just can't get enuff of it, lol. thanks, bluerf
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:57 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.