Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10th February 2016, 01:21 PM   #1
eftihis
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chania Crete Greece
Posts: 343
Default Strange yataghan! Russian?

Hello, this is a yataghan with a strange looking handle! I havent seen anything like that before, but somehow the bronze metalwork after the handle, reminds me of something from eastern europe or Russia. What do you think?
Attached Images
      
eftihis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2016, 04:06 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,377
Default

What an interesting piece! Although not typically Balkan or Turkish, what in the hilt looks Russian in your sight (always wanting to learn more.....).

Thanks for posting this.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2016, 06:09 PM   #3
eftihis
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chania Crete Greece
Posts: 343
Default

"Russian" is a wild guess! But i see some sort of resemplance with the "playful" metalwork that these 2 rusian scabbards have, and the "playful" type of metalwork in the ricasso.
Attached Images
  
eftihis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2016, 09:19 PM   #4
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 372
Default

I would have a look under the search term "Pandour"! Starting within this forum.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 08:29 AM   #5
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 521
Default

Just an interesting fact.

In Russia, sometimes made yataghans as a curiosity. For example, known yataghan made ZOF (Zlatoust arms factory) in 1902.
Attached Images
  
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 11:03 AM   #6
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Here are two examples that appear to be Russian made, Hermitage museum I think.
Attached Images
  
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 02:34 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,187
Default

Excellent call Dave!!!
The 'Pandours' were auxiliary units for the Austrians mid 18th c. and comprised on primarily Hungarian and Croatian troops . While in their 'irregular' capacity with various 'line' forces, they wore their own styles of uniforms and weapons, and the 'exotic' flamboyance became favored by the military of a number of European nations. This is primarily the instance which brought in many of these Balkan and Ottoman type weapons with distinct European flair, and in my opinion are some of the most fascinating and unusual examples.
While this cannot be classified as pandour with certainty, it certainly has profound potential in that accord.

Esterch, just wanted to note that your skills in locating and posting amazing comparative examples in these threads is almost phenomenal!! Thank you for adding this great and key dimension to these discussions

Mahratt, I thank you as well as you bring in examples and outstanding images of applicable photographs and art work.

You guys are totally amazing!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 04:10 PM   #8
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Esterch, just wanted to note that your skills in locating and posting amazing comparative examples in these threads is almost phenomenal!! !
Thanks Jim, I did not see that Eftihis had already posted the two examples I posted, here is another one.
Attached Images
 
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 10:39 PM   #9
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,187
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Thanks Jim, I did not see that Eftihis had already posted the two examples I posted, here is another one.



I missed that too! Nice examples and Eftihis, thank you very much as well.
Its great to see these intriguing examples from Russia, and key to note how skilled they were in making various ethnographic weapon forms such as these.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 04:14 AM   #10
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Another Hermitage museum yatagan.
Attached Images
 
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 05:32 AM   #11
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

Is this one also Russian?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 05:50 AM   #12
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Is this one also Russian?
I am not sure, the translation from Russian does not help much, what do you thing, it just looks a bit different.
Attached Images
      

Last edited by estcrh : 14th February 2016 at 08:07 AM.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 05:55 AM   #13
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Is this one also Russian?


I would say at face value, and without referring to museum notes, the one above Ariel was made in the Balkan states as a diplomatic gift to Russian nobility...but detail on the scabbard seems to be a non Balkan hand?

I suspect the one in discussion originally is perhaps closer to Spain that Russia.

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 06:14 AM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

There was another Russian yataghan for sale at the last year (?)Auctions Imperial.
Personally, I never liked them: they are as yataghan-ish as Chassepot bayonets.
The last one here, with gold and blueing on the blade is essentially Russian military shashka with a recurved blade. It is showy and gaudy. You just look at it and there is a feeling that .. not quite...something off. Similar to the regulation Austrian ones. There is no "smell of the Orient"
Italian Labruna ones from Naples were closer to the original, but also not the same.

It's like Mameluke regulation sabers and Persian Shamshirs, or Chinese interpretations of European sabers, or Balkan-made variants of Caucasian kindjals , or Beduin "shashkas".

Perhaps, there is something to be said about spirits of ethnically- authentic masters:-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 06:23 AM   #15
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Is this one also Russian?


I would say at face value, and without referring to museum notes, the one above Ariel was made in the Balkan states as a diplomatic gift to Russian nobility...but detail on the scabbard seems to be a non Balkan hand?

I suspect the one in discussion originally is perhaps closer to Spain that Russia.

Gavin

-------------------------------------------

Are you referring to post #5?

There are snippets of legends, but the two readable ones refer to Abyssinian and Turkish origins. Perhaps, the desired legend was not included?

And the initial one in this topic does resemble the Labruna manufacture. Also... not quite:-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 08:09 AM   #16
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel

Are you referring to post #5?

I think Gavin was referring to #12? I added the Russian description there anyway.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 01:32 PM   #17
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

I was wondering what it was doing here: nothing Russian, typically authentic example.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 02:11 PM   #18
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I was wondering what it was doing here: nothing Russian, typically authentic example.
Do you know of another example like it, not the style but the design and quality of the metal work?
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 04:18 PM   #19
Rashka Vatnik
Member
 
Rashka Vatnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4
Default

Not a Russian
Rashka Vatnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 04:46 PM   #20
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

I do not archive pics, so the answer is no, I do not.

It is a very classy work, but there are a lot of classy yataghans, many with European-influenced decoration ( chasing, mostly). General style, dolphin head, configuration of ears, sumptuous chasing, overall harmony and elegance... Ottoman :-)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 05:21 PM   #21
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rashka Vatnik
Not a Russian


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Ottoman :-)

Can anyone translate the museums description from post #12?
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2016, 10:22 PM   #22
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

"Yataghan with scabbard. Asia Minor. Beginning of XIX century" . The rest is irrelevant: materials, dimension, provenance , date of accession ( 1919, so likely confiscated from the collection of poor Mr. Chertkov)
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2016, 03:54 AM   #23
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,238
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
"Yataghan with scabbard. Asia Minor. Beginning of XIX century" . The rest is irrelevant: materials, dimension, provenance , date of accession ( 1919, so likely confiscated from the collection of poor Mr. Chertkov)

It could be a diplomatic gift as Gavin mentioned, I personally have not seen this type of work on another example and I do have an extensive archive of images. Why would this be described as "Asia Minor" when another obviously Ottoman example from the same museum is described as being "Ottoman", what would the Russians consider Asian Minor to be?
Attached Images
  

Last edited by estcrh : 15th February 2016 at 04:21 AM.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2016, 11:10 AM   #24
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,689
Default

No sense looking for some kind of deep meaning of "Asia Minor" vs. "Ottoman".
It is just a lack of uniformity, poor choice of words or faithful but thoughtless adherence to the terminology used on the original accession card.
Even more glaringly: it is described in Russian as a "Yataghan" while in English as a "Scimitar".

I have a pretty big book about Oriental sword collection from the Russian Ethnographic Museum with multiple misattributions, inaccuracies and just primitive mistakes . The publisher sesequently tried to explain them away simply by saying that : 1. They just blindly used the existing museum descriptions; 2. They had only a couple of months to prepare the catalog ; 3. Changing even the silliest error required lengthy bureaucratic process of approval by the museum bonzas; and 4. It is good enough for the masses.


In short, do not dwell on peculiarities of description. I do not remember who said that there is no need suspecting evil intent when just sheer stupidity would suffice:-)

Last edited by ariel : 15th February 2016 at 11:31 AM.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2016, 09:02 AM   #25
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 817
Default

Hi,
I've seen this post yet.
For me your yataghan is from Tunisia.
I can see some similarities with Tunisian straigh daggers but also some pistols - I talk about the hilt / grips.
For the others yataghans (posts 3 & 6), I think they are diplomatic gifts between Algeria and Russia... They remind me some Algerian yataghans in the beautiful book that I forgot the title...
best,
Kubur
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:50 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.