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Old 18th February 2013, 04:56 AM   #1
loremzo
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Default Gentlemen, I would like to ask the origins of the sword. Thank's so much.

Gentlemen, I would like to ask the origins of the sword.

I come from Taiwan, please forgive me the bad English, my mother tongue is Chinese.

1.I think I ask this sword is from Toledo, Spain's Moorish made​​?

2.Feeling this to the sword hilt have a strong Islamic style.

3.But, in 1602 Spanish King to the Ottoman Empire and Morocco to the expulsion of the Moors.Why Toledo will be in Spain in the 19th century Moorish sword works???

4.This can put sword hilt called European Tessak or Dussage or Sinclair?

gentleman please help me? Thanks ..

Best regards

Seller for the description of the sword:

19th C. Toledo Moorish Sword

A very rare 19th C. Toledo made Moorish sword. It is nearly impossible to acquire any original moorish items, all are in museums in Turkey or Spain, but the next best thing is an original antique and guaranteed 19th c. Toleda made example of a 15th C. Moorish sword.

This example is made very well according to the standards of good older Toledo work, and displays the characteristic Moorish handle shape. The scabbard is also original to the sword as well.

42 "overall. Blade is 34".
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Old 18th February 2013, 10:59 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
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Extremely nice example Lorenzo, and very nicely presented with great description and accompanying illustrations. I think the seller has actually done a pretty good job of describing this sword, which indeed appears to be a latter 19th century representation of traditional Hispano-Moresque form swords as shown. The baldric type mounts are of course much favored in Arabian swords, and in motif very much recalling the jineta forms of edged weapons characteristic of Moorish Spain.
The scabbard and blade suggest this to be a court or dress type sword with military character, and quite possibly from regions in North Africa. It is likely to be more regalia oriented than military respite the nature of the mounts. It would be interesting to see if comparable examples are known.
The reason it is nearly impossible to acquire original Moorish swords is that only a few survive, typically as noted in Istanbul, and of course the influence remains profoundly in Toledo and much of Spain.
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Old 21st February 2013, 04:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Extremely nice example Lorenzo, and very nicely presented with great description and accompanying illustrations. I think the seller has actually done a pretty good job of describing this sword, which indeed appears to be a latter 19th century representation of traditional Hispano-Moresque form swords as shown. The baldric type mounts are of course much favored in Arabian swords, and in motif very much recalling the jineta forms of edged weapons characteristic of Moorish Spain.
The scabbard and blade suggest this to be a court or dress type sword with military character, and quite possibly from regions in North Africa. It is likely to be more regalia oriented than military respite the nature of the mounts. It would be interesting to see if comparable examples are known.
The reason it is nearly impossible to acquire original Moorish swords is that only a few survive, typically as noted in Istanbul, and of course the influence remains profoundly in Toledo and much of Spain.



Hi Mr.Jim McDougall:

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, there is a question would

like to consult you.

This can put sword hilt called European Tessak or Dussage or Sinclair?

Best regards
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Old 21st February 2013, 07:35 PM   #4
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I don't think so. Yours is a spanish, late 19th century reiterpretation of a classic mudejar style sword, I don't think you can call it that way, as it has nothing to do with with classic european styles that you mention as austrian tessak, british sinclair and french dussage are all types of basket hilted, normaly curved single edged swords that originated in 16th century and in use till end of the 17th century in some cases. There is no connection with your sword and them, neither historically neither artistically. Jim, correct me pls if I'm wrong.

I think that this sword was not made for combat or official use whatsoever. . Rather a nice and high quality item for room decoration or destined to be sold to early, mostly british tourists, vidsting the gorgeous Alhambra fortress in Granada, wich became extreamly popular among british upper classes after the pubblication of the book "Tales from the Alhambra" by Washington Irving in 1832. I can speculate that there would be a high demand for quality items as this one and sword making companies in Toledo started the production to meet the demand and they took it very seriously it seems and produced true works of art as definetly is your sword.

Please take a look here, for a similar item in style http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=Mudejar

So strictly speaking a tourist piece with almost no historic interest, but still a Very nice and desideranle example indeed due to its high quality craftsmanship deriving from the great spanish best swordmaking tradition, wich times back to the moors. A classical back to the roots, i would say.

Last edited by Valjhun : 21st February 2013 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 21st February 2013, 08:15 PM   #5
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Hi Lorenzo,
As Valjhun has noted, this sword has absolutely nothing to do with those sword terms tessak, dusagge and Sinclair and a disassociated assembly of sword terms in this kind of grouping seems a familiar tactic used to head many ebay entries to promote computer hits.
The tessak and dussage were North European heavy short sabres of which many were often labeled with the misnomer 'Sinclair' referring to an ill fated Scottish mission into these regions centuries ago.

In my opinion this sword certainly does seem to be from the period in latter 19th century, and certainly not for combat of course, but as noted of high quality which seems likely to have been made for possibly special use in some type of regalia or pageantry. If it were for diplomatic or presentation occasion there would be inscriptions etc. accordingly. There are even remote possibilities of fraternal issue, but again, should be inscriptions. The scabbard of military style is unusual for something intended commercially in its quality and fittings, and the baldric the baldric mounts seem unusual as well as this was in my opinion intended for wear, and in the Arab fashion.

Good observations Valjhun on the interest in Spanish history and literature generated in the 19th century with this and popularity of other works, and these kinds of items may well have been produced for such consumption, but this seems more for traditional regalia type use in my opinion. One other suggestion I might add is the potential for a theatrical item, and in these times the historically oriented items for such use were actually pretty impressive.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 11:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Lorenzo,
As Valjhun has noted, this sword has absolutely nothing to do with those sword terms tessak, dusagge and Sinclair and a disassociated assembly of sword terms in this kind of grouping seems a familiar tactic used to head many ebay entries to promote computer hits.
The tessak and dussage were North European heavy short sabres of which many were often labeled with the misnomer 'Sinclair' referring to an ill fated Scottish mission into these regions centuries ago.

In my opinion this sword certainly does seem to be from the period in latter 19th century, and certainly not for combat of course, but as noted of high quality which seems likely to have been made for possibly special use in some type of regalia or pageantry. If it were for diplomatic or presentation occasion there would be inscriptions etc. accordingly. There are even remote possibilities of fraternal issue, but again, should be inscriptions. The scabbard of military style is unusual for something intended commercially in its quality and fittings, and the baldric the baldric mounts seem unusual as well as this was in my opinion intended for wear, and in the Arab fashion.

Good observations Valjhun on the interest in Spanish history and literature generated in the 19th century with this and popularity of other works, and these kinds of items may well have been produced for such consumption, but this seems more for traditional regalia type use in my opinion. One other suggestion I might add is the potential for a theatrical item, and in these times the historically oriented items for such use were actually pretty impressive.


Detailed answers, Thank you very much, the two gentlemen.

I have a deeper understanding of this sword in answer.

To pay tribute to the knowledge of the two gentlemen.

best regards.
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Old 24th February 2013, 02:58 AM   #7
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Thank you Lorenzo for your courteous response, and glad to be of any help.
Jim
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Old 24th March 2013, 08:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Lorenzo for your courteous response, and glad to be of any help.
Jim


Hi Sir:

This sword, because curiosity's sake, so I do acid leaching wootz steel processing.

Such a pattern, request you to see the photos.

This is an wootz? ? ? Really strange.

Because unlike Damascus steel, but lines like the wootz.

This is mudejar style in Spain Toledo manufacturing, but how will such lines? ?

Whether it should be changed before the direction of thinking? ? ?

Please tell me this strange situation okay? ?

Thank you very much.

best regards

PS. Scabbard damaged in transit I restored to professionals
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Old 29th March 2013, 02:14 AM   #9
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Question

Could this be an older Shear Steel blade in 19th C. mounts ?
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Old 29th March 2013, 07:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Could this be an older Shear Steel blade in 19th C. mounts ?


Hi:

Blade + hilt = 111cm
Blade length = 91cm

I do not know what is going on?

I want the person to answer this puzzle may need MR.Jim or more knowledgeable knowledge ...
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