Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th February 2014, 05:28 PM   #271
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,651
Default

Excellent entry Barry! Most assuredly there were kingdoms in India ruling parts of Ceylon during various early periods, and that is very much part of the complex and diverse history of this fascinating island. In 'Deraniyagala' (1942) there are a number of swords depicted in plates of line drawings very similar to these you have posted.
It is of course apparent that these swords of the Southern Indian kingdoms were strongly represented in early Sinhalese armouries.

With reference to elements which may have had some representation in the transitional forms which became eventually the kastane, please note the curious langet like extension on the upper sword in the second photo.
This same form occurs in kastane in the quillon configuration of the guard.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2014, 02:03 PM   #272
Maurice
Member
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
My theory on the Sri Lankan Kastane offers a design formulated by a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshops situation using The Makara combined onto a hilt with Vijra (Buddhist influence) elements(false quillons) onto which other Deities(Nagas) and the human faced crocodile on the hand guard are spilled and including a rain guard formed of the Makara (peacock form) tail.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


I think there is also a bit mix in it of a monkeyhead, as you can see above the makara head on the picture.
Attached Images
 
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2014, 07:01 AM   #273
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
I think there is also a bit mix in it of a monkeyhead, as you can see above the makara head on the picture.


Salaams Maurice... Makara!! .. Dragon, crocodile or serpent like head, ears of a mouse or pig, the horns of a goat, the body of an antelope or deer, the trunk of an elephant, a curved tail like that of a snake, peacock or fish and feet like those of a panther or a dog, with two horns on the forehead, its sides and bloated belly sometimes covered with leopard like spots, it is like nothing on earth... hmmm ?? Not sure ... it could be...

However, what about the huge grey stone object at the front?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2014, 07:25 PM   #274
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

They live!
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2014, 07:28 PM   #275
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,335
Default

Oh ... a pigfish. Very tasty
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2014, 11:51 PM   #276
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Oh ... a pigfish. Very tasty

Oh, i thought it was a Makara Nando.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2014, 07:02 PM   #277
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams All,

Not withstanding the excellent addition by Vandoo, Maurice and others this thread appears to have somewhat stalled, however, to lend a hand in its direction I have stumbled upon an interesting website outlining other weapons which may be of bearing.

Fascinating insights appear to describe order of battle, artillery, (even wooden barrels) and bows 'n arrows, lances and other sword forms ...some as throwing weapons from atop elephants in this ever incredible story of Sri Lankan ancient weaponry. Please see http://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...uese-dutch-and/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2014, 04:59 PM   #278
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams All,

Further more interesting variation appears in http://vedda.org/knox-veddas.htm where Knox describes a tribal entity called the Veddas with specially developed axe and bow/arrow. A study of the English captives 20 plus years in captivity inspired Defoe's "Robinson Cruseo" and is a treasure of pictorial and ethnographic details now at our fingertips.
The full account needs to be viewed since it is clear that the Vedda were intent on showing a false hand to the English and so as to disguise their actual lifestyle they played to the audience who at the time soaked up all they were fed with..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 16th March 2014 at 05:23 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2014, 09:52 AM   #279
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Salaams all...Spears of Sri Lanka. For interest from...http://srilanka.for91days.com/tag/tradition/
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
  
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2014, 07:09 PM   #280
napoleon
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 73
Default

saalams ibrahiim,interestingly the veddhas still exist in ceylon as an ethnic minority of small number i think 500 or so still living a traditional life,just got through reading knox,puts things more in perspective for me, with clear references to kastane and piha kaetta,
napoleon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2014, 09:29 PM   #281
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams All,

Further more interesting variation appears in http://vedda.org/knox-veddas.htm where Knox describes a tribal entity called the Veddas with specially developed axe and bow/arrow. A study of the English captives 20 plus years in captivity inspired Defoe's "Robinson Cruseo" and is a treasure of pictorial and ethnographic details now at our fingertips.
The full account needs to be viewed since it is clear that the Vedda were intent on showing a false hand to the English and so as to disguise their actual lifestyle they played to the audience who at the time soaked up all they were fed with..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Alexander Selkirk's adventures were the inspiration for Robinson Crusoe ....
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2014, 07:45 AM   #282
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Alexander Selkirk's adventures were the inspiration for Robinson Crusoe ....


Salaams Rick, Not entirely ~

See Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_%28sailor%29 Quote''During the voyage Knox wrote the manuscript of An Historical Relation of the Island Ceylon, an account of his experiences on Ceylon, which was published in 1681. The book was accompanied by engravings showing the inhabitants, their customs and agricultural techniques. It attracted widespread interest at the time and made Knox internationally famous, influencing Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe as well as sparking a friendship with Robert Hooke of the Royal Society. It is one of the earliest and most detailed European accounts of life on Ceylon and is today seen as an invaluable record of the island in the 17th century.'' Unquote.

I think the word influencing carries enough inspiration to be supportive in the construction of the tale..

Also note from Wikepedia : Quote"Robinson Crusoe /ˌrɒbɪnsən ˈkruːsoʊ/ is a novel by Daniel Defoe, first published on 25 April 1719. This first edition credited the work's fictional protagonist Robinson Crusoe as its author, leading many readers to believe he was a real person and the book a travelogue of true incidents. It was published under the considerably longer original title The Life and Strange Surprizing Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, Of York, Mariner: Who lived Eight and Twenty Years, all alone in an un-inhabited Island on the Coast of America, near the Mouth of the Great River of Oroonoque; Having been cast on Shore by Shipwreck, wherein all the Men perished but himself. With An Account how he was at last as strangely deliver'd by Pyrates.

*Epistolary, confessional, and **didactic in form, the book is a fictional autobiography of the title character (whose birth name is Robinson Kreutznaer)—a castaway who spends years on a remote tropical island near Trinidad, encountering cannibals, captives, and mutineers before being rescued.

The story is widely perceived to have been influenced by the life of Alexander Selkirk, a Scottish castaway who lived for four years on the Pacific island called "Más a Tierra" (in 1966 its name was changed to Robinson Crusoe Island), Chile. However, other possible sources have been put forward for the text. It is possible, for example, that Defoe was inspired by the Latin or English translations of Ibn Tufail's Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, an earlier novel also set on a desert island.

Another source for Defoe's novel may have been Robert Knox's account of his abduction by the King of Ceylon in 1659 in "An Historical Account of the Island Ceylon," Glasgow: James MacLehose and Sons (Publishers to the University), 1911.

In his 2003 book In Search of Robinson Crusoe, Tim Severin contends that the account of Henry Pitman in a short book chronicling his escape from a Caribbean penal colony and subsequent shipwrecking and desert island misadventures, is the inspiration for the story.

Arthur Wellesley Secord in his Studies in the narrative method of Defoe (1963: 21-111) painstakingly analyses the composition of Robinson Crusoe and gives a list of possible sources of the story, rejecting the common theory that the story of Selkirk is Defoe's only source.

Despite its simple narrative style, Robinson Crusoe was well received in the literary world and is often credited as marking the beginning of realistic fiction as a literary genre. Before the end of 1719 the book had already run through four editions, and it has gone on to become one of the most widely published books in history, spawning numerous sequels and adaptations for stage, film, and television".Unquote.

Notes;
*(An epistolary novel is a novel written as a series of documents)
**(A didactic novel that set out to expose social injustice)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 24th March 2014 at 10:03 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2014, 08:28 AM   #283
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by napoleon
saalams ibrahiim,interestingly the veddhas still exist in ceylon as an ethnic minority of small number i think 500 or so still living a traditional life,just got through reading knox,puts things more in perspective for me, with clear references to kastane and piha kaetta,


Salaams Napoleon ~ Its not a bad way of breaking into the subject whilst having a weather eye on the poetic licence of the author..Knox is good background stuff though he appears a little late in proceedings, however, it makes good reading. Well done for ploughing through it !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2014, 08:30 PM   #284
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by napoleon
... interestingly the veddhas still exist in ceylon as an ethnic minority of small number i think 500 or so still living a traditional life, just got through reading knox ...

Hi Napoleon
It looks like they have never been so many
I see that Robert Knox arrived in Ceylon in 1659, one year after Portuguese João Ribeiro left the island (captured by the Dutch in 1658), where he has been since 1640. Ribeiro wrote his work (Historic Fatality of Ceylon) in 1680 and this was only published 1685. Although Knox wrote his work in 1681, Ribeiro’s experiences are earlier, especially in what touches local war episodes. However both descriptions of the Vedas don’t differ so much in the essential.
On the other hand, i am surprised in that Knox places the Vedas in the 'Land of Bintan' (Indonesia?), whereas Ribeiro places them in the Northern Ceylonese lands of Vanni, between Jaffna and Trincomalee, in the middle of two separating rivers, along 10 leagues of coast and 8 leagues inland, an area of very dense bushes; and they were so few that within these 10 leagues they wandered in those bushes and almost wouldn’t communicate ones with the others… despite a legend told by locals that would implicate in these people being in large number.
Ribeiro also stresses that they wouldn’t stay in permanent villages. Each family stayed in a place no more than six months, enough to plant seed and harvest the result; then they moved somewhere else.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2014, 10:09 PM   #285
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Rick, Not entirely ~

See Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_%28sailor%29 Quote''During the voyage Knox wrote the manuscript of An Historical Relation of the Island Ceylon, an account of his experiences on Ceylon, which was published in 1681. The book was accompanied by engravings showing the inhabitants, their customs and agricultural techniques. It attracted widespread interest at the time and made Knox internationally famous, influencing Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe as well as sparking a friendship with Robert Hooke of the Royal Society. It is one of the earliest and most detailed European accounts of life on Ceylon and is today seen as an invaluable record of the island in the 17th century.'' Unquote.

I think the word influencing carries enough inspiration to be supportive in the construction of the tale..

Also note from Wikepedia : Quote"Robinson Crusoe /ˌrɒbɪnsən ˈkruːsoʊ/ is a novel by Daniel Defoe, first published on 25 April 1719. This first edition credited the work's fictional protagonist Robinson Crusoe as its author, leading many readers to believe he was a real person and the book a travelogue of true incidents. It was published under the considerably longer original title The Life and Strange Surprizing Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, Of York, Mariner: Who lived Eight and Twenty Years, all alone in an un-inhabited Island on the Coast of America, near the Mouth of the Great River of Oroonoque; Having been cast on Shore by Shipwreck, wherein all the Men perished but himself. With An Account how he was at last as strangely deliver'd by Pyrates.

*Epistolary, confessional, and **didactic in form, the book is a fictional autobiography of the title character (whose birth name is Robinson Kreutznaer)—a castaway who spends years on a remote tropical island near Trinidad, encountering cannibals, captives, and mutineers before being rescued.

The story is widely perceived to have been influenced by the life of Alexander Selkirk, a Scottish castaway who lived for four years on the Pacific island called "Más a Tierra" (in 1966 its name was changed to Robinson Crusoe Island), Chile. However, other possible sources have been put forward for the text. It is possible, for example, that Defoe was inspired by the Latin or English translations of Ibn Tufail's Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, an earlier novel also set on a desert island.

Another source for Defoe's novel may have been Robert Knox's account of his abduction by the King of Ceylon in 1659 in "An Historical Account of the Island Ceylon," Glasgow: James MacLehose and Sons (Publishers to the University), 1911.

In his 2003 book In Search of Robinson Crusoe, Tim Severin contends that the account of Henry Pitman in a short book chronicling his escape from a Caribbean penal colony and subsequent shipwrecking and desert island misadventures, is the inspiration for the story.

Arthur Wellesley Secord in his Studies in the narrative method of Defoe (1963: 21-111) painstakingly analyses the composition of Robinson Crusoe and gives a list of possible sources of the story, rejecting the common theory that the story of Selkirk is Defoe's only source.

Despite its simple narrative style, Robinson Crusoe was well received in the literary world and is often credited as marking the beginning of realistic fiction as a literary genre. Before the end of 1719 the book had already run through four editions, and it has gone on to become one of the most widely published books in history, spawning numerous sequels and adaptations for stage, film, and television".Unquote.

Notes;
*(An epistolary novel is a novel written as a series of documents)
**(A didactic novel that set out to expose social injustice)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.



Beautifully posted Ibrahiim!!! and thank you for all this detail. Quite honestly I had not even heard of Knox before you started posting this material, and for that matter had no idea of these other influences on the 'Robinson Crusoe' classic!
This is the amazing thing about taking the time to research things, and though often digressing from the topic or item being studied, how many other things can be learned along the way.
Thank you for always taking that extra time to thoroughly present these kinds of details!

All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2014, 10:12 PM   #286
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Napoleon
It looks like they have never been so many
I see that Robert Knox arrived in Ceylon in 1659, one year after Portuguese João Ribeiro left the island (captured by the Dutch in 1658), where he has been since 1640. Ribeiro wrote his work (Historic Fatality of Ceylon) in 1680 and this was only published 1685. Although Knox wrote his work in 1681, Ribeiro’s experiences are earlier, especially in what touches local war episodes. However both descriptions of the Vedas don’t differ so much in the essential.
On the other hand, i am surprised in that Knox places the Vedas in the 'Land of Bintan' (Indonesia?), whereas Ribeiro places them in the Northern Ceylonese lands of Vanni, between Jaffna and Trincomalee, in the middle of two separating rivers, along 10 leagues of coast and 8 leagues inland, an area of very dense bushes; and they were so few that within these 10 leagues they wandered in those bushes and almost wouldn’t communicate ones with the others… despite a legend told by locals that would implicate in these people being in large number.
Ribeiro also stresses that they wouldn’t stay in permanent villages. Each family stayed in a place no more than six months, enough to plant seed and harvest the result; then they moved somewhere else.


Thank you for this additional perspective from Portuguese resources, which gives us valuable insight from much fuller spectrum. Nicely added Nando!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2014, 05:16 PM   #287
napoleon
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 73
Default

thank you ibrahiim ,fernando and jim,particularly for the portugese reference, a bit more reading if i can access a copy,i think the thread is still going well,but also feel that,any pics of examples,absolutely any,however rusty to anything gold mounted, gem encrusted, with or without inscriptions(are there any?) ?.regards napoleon
napoleon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2014, 06:28 PM   #288
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by napoleon
thank you ibrahiim ,fernando and jim,particularly for the portugese reference, a bit more reading if i can access a copy,i think the thread is still going well,but also feel that,any pics of examples,absolutely any,however rusty to anything gold mounted, gem encrusted, with or without inscriptions(are there any?) ?.regards napoleon



Salaams Napoleon...Just picking up on "anything gold mounted, gem encrusted" Do you refer to the Kastane? If so, I think you mean to post this on The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism...I am not certain what other weapons (not counting the Piha Kheata) would fall into that category..For some stunning pictures of Kastane Pinterest does some good pictures and also some of our own museum visiting members have taken great pictures in various venues like The Wallace Collection ~ just tap into Forum Library.

Good luck on your continued research. Thanks

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 25th March 2014 at 06:38 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2014, 09:13 PM   #289
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Smile

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF TWO DAGGERS SAID TO BE FROM SOUTHERN INDIA. I HAVE NO FURTHER INFORMATION ON THEM BUT THE POMMELS USEING MYTHICAL OR REAL REVERED CREATURES WERE IN USE THERE AS WELL AS CEYLON.
Attached Images
   
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2014, 02:53 PM   #290
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF TWO DAGGERS SAID TO BE FROM SOUTHERN INDIA. I HAVE NO FURTHER INFORMATION ON THEM BUT THE POMMELS USEING MYTHICAL OR REAL REVERED CREATURES WERE IN USE THERE AS WELL AS CEYLON.


Salaams VANDOO ~ Amongst the many names I have heard them described as "Yaali". These monster forms are very interesting and represent an Iconic place in the traditional history of the region. Monster heads, in particular, the Makara are also seen as gargoyle water spouts and this general form is applied to jewellery, door knockers, temple door and window surrounds, weapon hilts, powder flasks etc. Very much part of the architectural landscape and design features adorning many artefacts..This style of decoration flows all over the Buddhist/Hindu influenced Indian sub continental region.

What is quite peculiar is that these Iconic zoomorphic hilts rebounded onto European swords..."The Dogheads"...apparently from the Sri Lankan Kastane.

e.g. For an account of English Cutlass style Dogheads see http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/...d-naval-cutlass

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 29th March 2014 at 03:19 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2014, 07:46 PM   #291
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody
... The possibility of the name Kasthana being influenced by the Portuguese is real as it is a word that does not seem to have a direct meaning in Sinhala or have too many similar words to accompany it. Curiously the only other similar term that (comes to my mind) that may also shed a little light on this is the “Patisthana” spears; being of the same class as the Partisans. The similarity between the terms “Kasthana” or “Patisthana” seem obvious. The only difference being the presence of a much more ancient form of spear known in literature as the “patissa” which is most probably ancestor to the “Patisthana”. It is known that the Sinhala elite of the era was quite conversant with Portuguese and the use of the language had become wide spread and stylish as a secondary language in the Country.


... even today there is a rather large number of words of Portuguese origin amalgamated within the Sinhala language.

Quite a few indeed:
Do you recognize some, Prasanna ?

abano, aia, alfinete, almoço, ama, armário, atalaia banco, baioneta, balde, bandeja, bastão, batata, bêbado, biscoito, bola, borra, botão, braçal, burro, caldeirão, calças, câmara, camisa, candelabro, capitão, carreta, casamento, chão, chinela, citação, contrato, copo, cozinha, cunha, curral, dado, dedal, diamante, doce, dona, escola, espírito, forro, garfo, gasto, gelosia, globo, janela, lança, lençol, lanterna, lenço, lestes, linguiça, lotaria, meia, mesa, mostra, numero, padre, pão, passaporte, pato, pedreiro, pena, pepino, palangana, picão, pintura, pipa, pistola, púcaro, renda, ripa, roda, rosa, saco, saia, sala, salada, sapato, sarampo, saúde (brinde), semana, sino, soldado, tacho, tenda, tinta, toalha, tombo' tranca. trigo, vidro, vinagre, etc.

But i don't find in all these words the path for the term Kasthana. This is a tough riddle; i have just read that another specialist in Sinhalese languages, Reverend Charles Carter, pretends that the term is Portuguese .
Has he already been mentioned here ?

http://archives.dailynews.lk/2012/06/28/fea02.asp
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2014, 06:51 PM   #292
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Whats in a word...? Kastane ~Katana
See http://www.lk.emb-japan.go.jp/eg/co...siodesNewE.html

Whilst the Edo period in Japan heralded some interesting political visits to Sri Lanka it is with a broad brush that I apply some potential to this word puzzle... and I suspect that like other similar puzzles like Kattara, Qudderah, Katta etc etc this one may rest forever surrounded in the usual mists of time ..

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana~

Quote" Etymology and loanwords. "Katana" is the term now used to describe nihontō that are 2 shaku (606 mm / 23.9 in) and longer, also known as "dai" or "daito" among Western sword enthusiasts although daito is a generic name for any long sword.

Pronounced [katana], the kun'yomi (Japanese reading) of the kanji 刀, originally meaning dao (sword) or knife/saber in Chinese, the word has been adopted as a loanword by the Portuguese language. In Portuguese the designation (spelled catana) means "large knife" or machete. As Japanese does not have separate plural and singular forms, both "katanas" and "katana" are considered acceptable forms in English".Unquote.

Whilst there are some links in the Buddhist nature Bothavista and a few similar letters in each alphabet Sri Lankan / Japanese and a similar word order... it is far from clear if there was any involvement in a word link though one website actually plainly points to the word Kastana as having evolved from the Japanese word Katana but without proof. see http://karava.org/other/mudaliyars at para 3 under Mudalyars...I therefor have the Japanese obtained Portuguese word as purely co-incidental.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 5th April 2014 at 07:11 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2014, 05:03 PM   #293
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

See spear weilding soldier below who appears to be Javanese ...Quote."One of seven paintings by William Daniell, originally painted for Thomas Stamford Raffles, History of Java. Similar images are in the 1817 edition of the book". Unquote. see www.britishmuseum.org


They were also often used as mercenaries in Sri Lanka..Interestingly working for example for the Dutch then agreeing to work for the English when they assumed control... as did Swiss and French mercenaries.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 13th April 2014 at 10:01 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th June 2016, 01:08 PM   #294
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Tamil swords?

Having just purchased a kastane from Oriental Arms
(http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=6813), I spent much of yesterday reading this long thread on Sinalese weapons,
and the one on the kastane in particular.
(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=kastane)
With a certain amount of contemplation and consideration of the various opinions expressed, I think that the four questions Jim introduced at the start of the second thread were pretty well covered, except perhaps the third point:

“The kastane appears to have developed from earlier combat weapons into the more regalia oriented court sword form in high embellishment. Hoping to establish some type of chronological line of development.”


At the risk of tipping off another avalanche, I wonder what is known about the weapons of the second major ethnic group on Sri Lanka, the Tamils.

Also, I am guessing that the kastane is an item of such well conserved design that it is difficult to date individual pieces but I would be interested to hear opinions on the piece I have in route from Atzi.
Attached Images
    
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th June 2016, 05:17 PM   #295
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default The Tamils.

Marcus you have what appears to be a Castana of the type worn by Mudalyar or civil service officers as a badge of office.

Your question and heading are interesting since no one as yet has entered anything on these threads about Tamil and in trying to do so without getting tangled in recent history politics and war in the region we need to go far back ...

Wikepedia looks at an interesting field concerning Tamils who as you may know inhabit two areas in Southern India and Sri Lanka...but avoiding that and focussing on two aspects...The Martial Arts and the high class steel making capacity of the Tamils I think we can uncover a few little known facts...In this regard I also side step the issue already covered of Portuguese Dutch and British involvement ...at least in this reply. Thus from Wikepedia I do Quote"

Martial Traditions.
Kalaripayattu martial art form which originated during Sangam Period.

Various martial arts including Kuttu Varisai, Varma Kalai, Silambam, Adithada, Malyutham and Kalarippayattu, are practised in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.The warm-up phase includes yoga, meditation and breathing exercises. Silambam originated in ancient Tamilakam and was patronized by the Pandyans, Cholas and Cheras, who ruled over this region. Silapathiharam a Tamil literature from the 2nd century AD, refers to the sale of Silamabam instructions, weapons and equipment to foreign traders.

Since the early Sangam age, there was a warlike culture in South India. War was regarded as an honorable sacrifice and fallen heroes and kings were worshiped in the form of a Hero stone. Each warrior was trained in martial arts, horse riding and specialized in two of the weapons of that period Vel (spear) Val (sword) and Vil (bow).

Heroic martyrdom was glorified in ancient Tamil literature. The Tamil kings and warriors followed an honour code similar to that of Japanese Samurais and committed suicide to save the honor. The forms of martial suicide were known as Avipalli, Thannai, Verttal, Marakkanchi, Vatakkiruttal and Punkilithu Mudiyum Maram. Avipalli was mentioned in all the works except Veera Soliyam. It was a self-sacrifice of a warrior to the goddess of war for the victory of his commander.

Among the ancient Tamils the practice of erecting memorial stones Natukalhad appeared, and it continued for quite a long time after the Sangam age, down to about 16th century. It was customary for people who sought victory in war to worship these hero stones to bless them with victory. They often carry inscriptions displaying a variety of adornments, including bas relief panels, frieze, and figures on carved stone.

Wootz Steel Production.

Wootz steel originated in South India and Sri Lanka. There are several ancient Tamil, Greek, Chinese and Roman literary references to high carbon Indian steel since the time of Alexander's India campaign. The crucible steel production process started in the sixth century BC, at production sites of Kodumanal in Tamil Nadu, Golconda in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Sri Lanka and exported globally; the Tamils of the Chera Dynasty producing what was termed the finest steel in the world, i.e. Seric Iron to the Romans, Egyptians, Chinese and Arabs by 500 BC. The steel was exported as cakes of steely iron that came to be known as "Wootz."

The Tamilakam method was to heat black magnetite ore in the presence of carbon in a sealed clay crucible inside a charcoal furnace. An alternative was to smelt the ore first to give wrought iron, then heated and hammered to be rid of slag. The carbon source was bamboo and leaves from plants such as Avārai. The Chinese and locals in Sri Lanka adopted the production methods of creating Wootz steel from the Chera Tamils by the 5th century BC. In Sri Lanka, this early steel-making method employed a unique wind furnace, driven by the monsoon winds, capable of producing high-carbon steel and production sites from antiquity have emerged, in places such as Anuradhapura, Tissamaharama and Samanalawewa, as well as imported artifacts of ancient iron and steel from Kodumanal. A 200 BCE Tamil trade guild in Tissamaharama, in the South East of Sri Lanka, brought with them some of the oldest iron and steel artifacts and production processes to the island from the classical period.

The Arabs introduced the South Indian/Sri Lankan wootz steel to Damascus, where an industry developed for making weapons of this steel. The 12th century Arab traveler Edrisi mentioned the "Hinduwani" or Indian steel as the best in the world. Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase – to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword." Wootz steel was widely exported and traded throughout ancient Europe and the Arab world, and became particularly famous in the Middle East.

Traditional Weapons

The Tamil martial arts also includes various types of weapons.

Valari (throwing stick)
Maduvu (deer horns)
Surul Vaal (curling blade)
Vaal (sword) + Ketayam (shield)
Itti or Vel (spear)
Savuku (whip)
Kattari (fist blade)...Kattar push dagger....
Veecharuval (battle Machete)
Silambam (long bamboo staff)
Kuttu Katai (spiked knuckleduster)
Katti (dagger/knife)
Vil (bow)
Tantayutam (mace)
Soolam (trident)
Theekutchi (flaming baton)
Yeratthai Mulangkol (dual stick)
Yeretthai Vaal (dual sword)" Unquote.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2016, 07:32 PM   #296
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Having listed the Tamil weapons above I will start the ball rolling with the throwing sticks ... Wikepedia notes Quote"
Valari

Type. Throwing Stick.
Place of origin. India.

VALARI (Tamil: வளரி) or valai tadi is a throwing stick used primarily by the Tamil people of India and Sri Lanka. Valari were used in war, fighting, and hunting. It was the favorite weapon of choice in a deer hunt.

Shape
Similar to the boomerang of the aboriginal Australians, however, the Tamilian Valari doesn't return to the thrower. Valari were made in many shapes and sizes. Marudhu Brothers, brave Tamil kings were the veteran of using this. The usual form consists of two limbs set at an angle. One is thin and tappering while the other is rounded. The rounded end was used as a handle. They were usually made of wood or iron. Other valari had wooden limbs tipped with iron. Some had limbs which had lethally sharpened edges. Special daggers known as kattari, double-edged and razor sharp, were attached to some valari.

Use

The thrower holds the valari by one of its limbs and throws it. There are several ways of throwing and aiming. It is usually given a spin while throwing. While flying through the air, it maneuvers and executes several types of movements according to the throwers purpose. It may spin in the vertical axis, horizontal axis, or just fly without spinning. The spin may also vary in speed. A lethal throw is given a spin and aimed at the neck. A non-lethal throw is given a spin and aimed at the ankles or knees. This is to capture a fleeing victim. A simple hurting blow does not have any spin." Unquote.

* I note one particular technique of tying a Kattar (the Tamils called it Kattari) knife to a Valari ..!! making this a most lethal combination spinning through the air !!

**Further definitions may be found at http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dravidian_peoples
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 7th June 2016 at 08:07 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2016, 09:13 PM   #297
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Maduvu,

Fighting Horns...
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2016, 09:17 PM   #298
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,926
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Sural vaal ~ we have seen these before on this thread..see #205
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2016, 05:59 AM   #299
Prasanna Weerakkody
Member
 
Prasanna Weerakkody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Sri Lanka
Posts: 49
Default

Hi Marcus,

Just a note on the Kasthana you had posted. Based on my experience this seem to be a recent replica manufactured by a local "Antique Dealer" for sale to tourists. you can find many similar items on sale locally. The bronze/ Brass blades which are often riveted to a simple cast hilt which often include the guards as one piece is usually indicate modern replicas, the motifs area also not typically Sinhala in the detail.

Prasanna
Prasanna Weerakkody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2016, 10:38 AM   #300
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,488
Send a message via AIM to estcrh
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody
Hi Marcus,

Just a note on the Kasthana you had posted. Based on my experience this seem to be a recent replica manufactured by a local "Antique Dealer" for sale to tourists. you can find many similar items on sale locally. The bronze/ Brass blades which are often riveted to a simple cast hilt which often include the guards as one piece is usually indicate modern replicas, the motifs area also not typically Sinhala in the detail.

Prasanna

The blade does not appear to be "bronze / brass" to me and would a tourist piece be made with a silver hilt?

Quote:
The Kastane is the national sword of Sri-Lanka. It is characterized by its short curved blade, usually of mediocre quality and highly decorative hilt and scabbard. Here we have a good typical example with 14 inches curved blade. The silver hilt is of great decorative values – A piece of art by itself. The monster styled quillons and the monster head pommel with all parts delicately chiseled and engraved with great care and fine details. Pink colored stone eyes. Total length 19 inches. Very good condition. Heavily patinated blade. No scabbard. A very decorative piece.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.