Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th May 2012, 02:38 AM   #1
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default Unusual Etch on a Moro Blade

all the years i've tried etching moro blades i finally honed a certain technique in which i can bring out the lamination; visibly obvious, yet subtle enough so as not to overtake the overall aesthetic of the blade. good examples are these barungs.
i use the usual stuff: dishwashing soap and acetone to strip the oil, then vinegar and baking soda. after achieving the desired etch, i would run hot tap water on the blade to thoroughly was off any chemicals left on the blade.
Attached Images
    
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 02:44 AM   #2
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

and then this happened...
i was etching this kris as i thought i saw some squiggly lines along the edge. after spending an hour applying vinegar with a stiff nylon toothbrush (my preferred method), i finally started to see some lamination patterns in the usual typographical pattern. vague, but it was there. another hour spent applying vinegar with the toothbrush, but it seemed like this is about as bold as it will get, so i decided to neutralized the acid. after that was done, i ran hot tap water to wash off the baking soda. this is where it got weird. these unusual snake like lamination patterns started appearing all over the blade. the longer i applied hot water, the bolder the patterns got. it even overtook some of the typographical patterns, as in these darker lines were on top of the previous patterns. i've never seen this happen before. anyone ever had this experience? any explanation on what would cause these? one thing that is neat tho, it has this monochromatic scheme going; brass handle and baka-baka, darker brass collar, copper wire handle, and now these brown lines.
p.s.
for the record: i've handled moro blades for years, and i could honestly say that this is the very first time i've been "bitten" by a moro blade. weird.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by Spunjer : 19th May 2012 at 03:10 AM.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 09:17 AM   #3
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Nice barung Spunjer!

Ive had the same expierience etching kukri, my conclusian was hot water & air promote an oxidisation that highlight the otherwise low contrast laminations, due to some layers or lamination lines of the bladel oxidising more rapidly than the others.

As a technique I think of it as controled oxidisation highlighting.

Guess it needs a heavy oil soaking afterwards.

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 04:07 PM   #4
ThePepperSkull
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 338
Default

silver kakatua.... *drool*
ThePepperSkull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 04:48 PM   #5
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

@spiral: thanks! I do have this habit of running a hot water test on these blades to see if they're laminated. When I did it initially, none of those patterns came out.
On your multi, did pattern stayed, or did it eventually fade? Yes, you're right: healthy dose of oil was applied right after...
@dave: It's brass, I'm pretty sure. It's just that it is the lighter shade type, not to mention I went against the grain and decided to clean it up. Of note is the weight of this beast: it's heavy, comparable in heft with kampilans.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2012, 01:33 PM   #6
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
On your multi, did pattern stayed, or did it eventually fade? Yes, you're right: healthy dose of oil was applied right after...
.


It stays, but much cleaning fades it, I guess longer oxidisation leaves a more permant mark, a questian of getting the right balance I think?

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2012, 01:54 PM   #7
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
It stays, but much cleaning fades it, I guess longer oxidisation leaves a more permant mark, a questian of getting the right balance I think?

Spiral


Yes, agree, have similar operating experiences.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2012, 02:59 AM   #8
DaveS
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 324
Default

Spiral: I've had this happen before also after using vinegar to neutralize the
Phosphoric acid that i usually use to etch blades. It seems strange
to me that one acid can be used to neutralize another, but i guess
for some reason it works. Try also heating blades on both sides with
a torch (very carefully). Then apply acid. It seems to emphasize
the high-carbon areas of a blade with some really good results. If
the blade turns out too dark simply repolish, and try again....Dave
DaveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2012, 03:22 PM   #9
mross
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 355
Default

A weird color but looks like fold patterns to me.
mross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2012, 07:50 PM   #10
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveS
Spiral: I've had this happen before also after using vinegar to neutralize the
Phosphoric acid that i usually use to etch blades. It seems strange
to me that one acid can be used to neutralize another, but i guess
for some reason it works. Try also heating blades on both sides with
a torch (very carefully). Then apply acid. It seems to emphasize
the high-carbon areas of a blade with some really good results. If
the blade turns out too dark simply repolish, and try again....Dave


i would normally use a heat gun (use to strip paint) to warm the blade, not hot to touch, before applying my first layer of warm vinegar. you're right, in that it does emphasize certain areas of the blade when etching. never tried phosphoric acid, dave. pretty much stayed with vinegar.

mross: yes it does. but what i don't understand is why is the opposite side has a different pattern? was the core sandwiched together?
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 12:54 PM   #11
mross
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
mross: yes it does. but what i don't understand is why is the opposite side has a different pattern? was the core sandwiched together?

Sounds reasonable, that would be my guess. Since I'm not sure, if it's ok I can post the photos on one of my bladesmith site's and see what the guys who make this type of stuff think is going on. Or you could just cut it in half and have a look.
mross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 08:44 PM   #12
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveS
Spiral: I've had this happen before also after using vinegar to neutralize the
Phosphoric acid that i usually use to etch blades. It seems strange
to me that one acid can be used to neutralize another, but i guess
for some reason it works. Try also heating blades on both sides with
a torch (very carefully). Then apply acid. It seems to emphasize
the high-carbon areas of a blade with some really good results. If
the blade turns out too dark simply repolish, and try again....Dave


I think vinigar may dilute a stronger concentration of another acid Stan, but to neutralise it, will need an alkali, I think? vinigar still needs washing of or neutralising or will promote further oxidisation.

Lots of water washing & oill often suffices though.

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2012, 03:30 AM   #13
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mross
Sounds reasonable, that would be my guess. Since I'm not sure, if it's ok I can post the photos on one of my bladesmith site's and see what the guys who make this type of stuff think is going on. Or you could just cut it in half and have a look.



mross, have at it! if you want, i can email you the actual pics. i think i have a good idea on the make up of the blade, but it would be nice to hear from the bladesmith's point of view. the setup seems to be a popular theme among moro weapons (sandwich lamination).
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2012, 05:03 AM   #14
G. McCormack
Member
 
G. McCormack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 131
Send a message via AIM to G. McCormack
Default

my impression is that silica type impurities took that golden hue from the etch, revealing a normal folded and welded structure. Was your etchant brand new and clean, or had it been used before?
G. McCormack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2012, 03:21 AM   #15
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. McCormack
Was your etchant brand new and clean, or had it been used before?



it's brand new and clean.. always been a habit of mine to never reuse the same etchant on a different blade. besides, vinegar's pretty cheap as a matter of fact, the kris that i etched right after this came out "normal" (shown both sides). again, notice the different lamination structure variation on each side.. (sorry about the lighting.. took it under less optimal condition. the brownish tint was due to the artificial overhead light. actually it came out similar to the barungs above..)
Attached Images
    
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2012, 05:00 PM   #16
mross
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
mross, have at it! if you want, i can email you the actual pics. i think i have a good idea on the make up of the blade, but it would be nice to hear from the bladesmith's point of view. the setup seems to be a popular theme among moro weapons (sandwich lamination).

The smith's are in agreement with you on the construction.

Here is the link.

http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=23350
mross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2012, 02:37 PM   #17
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

thanks for the update, mross!
somehow i'm beginning to think the pandays of old had these pre-made blank billets lying around so when it's time to make a kris, he picks up a couple to sandwich a core.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2012, 03:37 PM   #18
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

I agree with mross. The "random" pattern is the proof of a laminated construction.
If there is no sign of lamination between the edge and the first brown line, this could possibly be a sandwich construction with central single steel (not sure, according to your two last photos which seem to show uniform lamination on the whole blade).
A good reason for sandwich construction is that a combination of non "quench-able" materials (ie : low carbon steel and nickel) was often used for lamination, in order to get good etching contrast (steel goes dark grey and nickel remains bright). If the laminated material canot be correctly hardened, this leads to sandwich construction which allows to have some good steel at the edges. Also good steel was much more expensive in the old days than common iron, so the less steel used the better it was for economical issues.
I cannot say what are the materials used for the construction of your blade. Might be iron + steel...

Last edited by delor : 27th May 2012 at 03:50 PM.
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2012, 02:39 PM   #19
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

thank you, delor, for a thorough explanation in the lamination process! would you say that the core is a solid piece, or would it resemble a tuning for (with the edges as tines)? ,
Quote:
(not sure, according to your two last photos which seem to show uniform lamination on the whole blade)
.

the last two photos are actually from a different kris i etched on the same day. i added the additional photos as a comparison to the original kris that was posted
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2012, 07:03 PM   #20
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

When a blacksmith didn't want to use rare good steel for the whole blade, he had to choose between two kind of construction :
- sandwich : 3 welded layers, with central good steel layer (first photo)
- welded edges : 3 welded bars, with good steel at the edges only (second photo)

Sandwich is much stronger because the welded surfaces are wider. Weld lines are quite irregular because of the strong hammering for the welding of the whole surface. I believe this is the construction of your blade.
(Welded edges are easy to detect because they show very regular and straight weld line because of the light hammering).

Of course, each of the separate parts can either be homogeneous or composite material (laminated & twisted core being the most traditional structures).
Attached Images
  
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2012, 04:08 AM   #21
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Thumbs up

delor,
thank you for the excellent illustrations! it's basically how i pictured the lamination in my mind, and was going to use the google sketchup, but the illustrations you provided are perfect. thanks once again.

Quote:
Sandwich is much stronger because the welded surfaces are wider. Weld lines are quite irregular because of the strong hammering for the welding of the whole surface. I believe this is the construction of your blade.


i think you are spot on on this one. my respect to the pandays of oldjust went up another notch..
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 11:25 AM   #22
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
my respect to the pandays of old just went up another notch..


Yes, blacksmith of the ancient times, especially Merovingians and Hindu ones (but not only) did prodigious works we hardly can reproduce nowadays, although we now have machines and deep understanding of chemical and physical issues about steels...
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 03:01 PM   #23
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,685
Default

incidentally i was watching "Weapon Masters" last night and the episode was "Katana". it showed how the japanese made their famous sword. very fascinating, to say the least!
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th June 2012, 08:41 PM   #24
ThePepperSkull
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 338
Default

Is the second configuration the type of welded edge we see on twisctore blades?
ThePepperSkull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2012, 10:18 PM   #25
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Twisted and forge welded bars can be used in any kind of blade construction. Nevertheless, the second type of construction is more likely to be used for twisted core, because it allows the removal of a lot of material from each side of the blade without impinging the construction itself.

By the way, to obtain a twisted "stars" pattern (by example like the turkish ribbon), one will have to :
- forge weld a laminated bar,
- twist the bar
- reforge it to square section
- forge weld it within the whole blade construction (there may be more than only one twisted bar...)
- grind to remove approximatively 1/3 of the material from each side of the blade in order to reach the twisted stars pattern which lays inside the bar.

So, you are right, the most usual construction will be made of the welding of a single bar or multi-bars core with separate edges.
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2018, 04:35 AM   #26
MichaelZWilliamson
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Default

I realize this is a very old thread.

Mild acid followed by boiling water is one of the techniques for cold rust bluing, typically used for double shotguns. Acid, boiling water, wire brushing, repeat 8-10 times will give you a deep, blue-black finish.

So the vinegar followed by hot water came close to almost performing the first step.
MichaelZWilliamson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2018, 03:11 AM   #27
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,992
Default

The only thing is that the original blades that survived with their original etch were not blue but brownish. In fact, Moros used this old formula:

1. cover the cleaned blade with citrus juice (like calamansee, a type of lime)

2. place in the hot sunlight

3. wait

4. wash off with water

The result was a grey to brownish color on the laminations of the blade. Sounds similar.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2018, 03:08 AM   #28
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
In fact, Moros used this old formula:

1. cover the cleaned blade with citrus juice (like calamansee, a type of lime)


I had the impression that Iba / balimbi /kamias or carambola was used for etching.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2018, 04:24 PM   #29
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,992
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
I had the impression that Iba / balimbi /kamias or carambola was used for etching.

I was told once that calamansi was also used, but the others make sense too.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.