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Old 30th January 2012, 12:36 AM   #61
Jeff D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.



Sorry I suspect this LIKE symbol may get annoying, but, I couldn't have stated my sentiments better than David did. We will see how this turns out. Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff
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Old 30th January 2012, 06:52 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff



Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.
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Old 30th January 2012, 09:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
This is uncalled for .

Not any longer.
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Old 30th January 2012, 12:29 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.



Salaams Evgeny_K~ Ok I sympathise because excavated metalwork is always a headache to restore. I can see by the first photos that this was never going to be easy though I hope you get a good result with the next phase...Just getting to the point of stabilising the rust will be a considerable step. Best of luck ya.
Regarding your next sword in similar condition ... This looks like another mission impossible ! What is tannin solution please ? I have not heard of it... I will search the web... is this acidic? How long to soak?.. can we see an after photograph please? Good luck !! ...ah wait I have searched the best library.. our own Forum search and now I understand tannin solution... very interesting indeed... Forum search Tannin Solution !!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 30th January 2012 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 30th January 2012, 09:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.



Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff
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Old 30th January 2012, 09:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...
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Old 31st January 2012, 04:05 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...



Salaams David~ Fair enough except that in their "as found" (excavated condition) they were being devoured by active rust. By expertly removing the salt and deactivating the rust and giving the tannin a shot i think it is salvageable and worth then rebuilding the hilt around. I can't see another alternative. It is difficult to take the rust off a little bit...

Less is more we all know that but this is a basket case scenario... You either give it a go or its smeared in grease and left.. no one likes to do that especially when theres a chance to rebuild a hilt around a salvaged blade... I say give it a good try; lets see the final result but don't expect miracles in the blade area.
Meanwhile and perhaps more importantly our library of "restoration knowledge" is being added to...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 31st January 2012, 04:06 PM   #68
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GREAT THREAD !!!
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Old 31st January 2012, 04:39 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams David~ Fair enough except that in their "as found" (excavated condition) they were being devoured by active rust. By expertly removing the salt and deactivating the rust and giving the tannin a shot i think it is salvageable and worth then rebuilding the hilt around. I can't see another alternative. It is difficult to take the rust off a little bit...

Less is more we all know that but this is a basket case scenario... You either give it a go or its smeared in grease and left.. no one likes to do that especially when theres a chance to rebuild a hilt around a salvaged blade... I say give it a good try; lets see the final result but don't expect miracles in the blade area.
Meanwhile and perhaps more importantly our library of "restoration knowledge" is being added to...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahim, i would love for you to point out where exactly i ever stated that it was a bad idea to stabilize the rust so that no further deterioration could take place. I agree with the "less is more" approach in these particular cases, but i never stated that one should do nothing at all. I will maintain however that it is never a good idea to go at a blade with steel brushes on a power tool. When i look at the before and after on this particular blade i can clearly see additional loss along the edge near the tip of the blade, damage which was not there before the restoration began.
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Old 1st February 2012, 06:45 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
When i look at the before and after on this particular blade i can clearly see additional loss along the edge near the tip of the blade, damage which was not there before the restoration began.


David and dear all,
Previously posted photos were taken a year before I got this saber.
Metal loss is a result of the corrosion effect.
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Old 1st February 2012, 12:42 PM   #71
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[QUOTE=David]Ibrahim, i would love for you to point out where exactly i ever stated that it was a bad idea to stabilize the rust so that no further deterioration could take place.


Salaams David~ I can't because you didn't. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 27th March 2012, 12:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
...
P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.



scabbard mounts in progress:

before (too much rusted)
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Old 27th March 2012, 12:48 PM   #73
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after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):



Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I have to say that this is pioneering work !

Considering the state the items were in when you started I think that is an excellent result. I hope the rest of the restoration goes as well. Most museums wouldn't touch this because understandably the sword was on its last legs... Most of us would have given this sword the wax protection and left it at that... Perhaps we have here a viable resusitation technique on what many would have said was a lost cause... This is highly specialised work. Best of luck Evgeny_K. Very impressive..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:48 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I have to say that this is pioneering work !

Considering the state the items were in when you started I think that is an excellent result. I hope the rest of the restoration goes as well. Most museums wouldn't touch this because understandably the sword was on its last legs... Most of us would have given this sword the wax protection and left it at that... Perhaps we have here a viable resusitation technique on what many would have said was a lost cause... This is highly specialised work. Best of luck Evgeny_K. Very impressive..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.



Thank you, Ibrahiim!
It's not my merit
I've asked to help me a person who is engaged in this kind of restoration.



Here is another example of his work (excavated rifle flint lock):




before:
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:50 PM   #76
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after:
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:52 PM   #77
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Some electric welding works (I don't use it for the sabers!)...
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Last edited by Evgeny_K : 27th March 2012 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:54 PM   #78
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Old 27th March 2012, 05:59 PM   #79
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Guys, Don't freak out too much on Evgeny here.

Iron/Steel objects are very challenging. In a conservation lab setting, washing to remove the different chlorides and mechanical cleaning are very typical. The only other thing you really can do is then shield the artifact in an argon-filled bag or container.

Unfortunately, the current research doesn't seem to favor the tannin approach.

Slapping some oil and 000 steel wool on a blade doesn't 'deactivate' corrosion. It's not so clear cut as that, and with blades this corroded the deep imbedded chlorides and other compounds will blister out as they keep working down.

So, not arguing for or against, but just realize that what Evgeny is doing is not too far off for current recommended treatment of such items.
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Old 27th March 2012, 06:01 PM   #80
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of course, now seeing the electrical welding post, that's totally another matter, and moves beyond any definition of 'conservation'

Regards,


Garrett
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Old 28th March 2012, 02:13 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. McCormack
of course, now seeing the electrical welding post, that's totally another matter, and moves beyond any definition of 'conservation'

Regards,


Garrett



Salaams G. McCormack ~For normal mortals (like me), naturally, this technique carries the addendum " Dont try this at home ! "
My own level of expertise I would have had to stop at the point of rust removal /neutralisation. I believe that museum restoration departments went for ultra sound treatment at one point but found it too aggressive and I wonder if this is a better solution. I've never seen the carbon treatment nor the electric weld technique before though both appear very viable. This is a new level. The before and after shots of the striker group are amazing.

I wonder what the finished sword will look like?

Excellent detail Evgeny_K thank you for posting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 29th March 2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 28th March 2012, 03:00 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I wonder what the finished sword will look like?



Hello Ibrahiim!
You'll see it soon.
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Old 16th April 2012, 03:05 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi


I wonder what the finished sword will look like?




Here is the sword...
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Old 16th April 2012, 03:11 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting


.


Gentelmen,
I would appreciate for any help in identifying this mark
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Old 17th April 2012, 07:55 AM   #85
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Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I am very impressed with the result so far. This is highly specialised and advanced stuff... Now you have the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? ) What is your programme of restoration for hilt and scabbard. Astonishing results so far...

I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex .

Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please?

Thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ps The stamp is upside down I think.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 17th April 2012 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 17th April 2012, 05:15 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? )



Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).
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Old 17th April 2012, 06:15 PM   #87
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Evgeny,

Great job.

Let's not forget the way this saber looked like when it came to you: it was a deformed lump of rusty metal. No amount of "gentle" cleaning would have recovered even a trace of what it was supposed to be, or prevent any further degradation.

To be honest: the historic and artistic value of this ( or any other) sword pales in comparison to Sistine Chapel.
http://msopal29.myweb.uga.edu/BeforeandAfter.html

If works of Michelangelo and Botticelli could be aggressively restored and conserved, a similar approach to a sword is fully justified.
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Old 17th April 2012, 07:32 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).


"Reanimation" of the excavated French m1777 infantry rifle:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooH1...t qoEJXeOKw3E=
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Old 18th April 2012, 08:41 AM   #89
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I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration.
Now, the question.

Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable?
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Old 18th April 2012, 11:56 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration.
Now, the question.

Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable?


I think that this method can be applied to objects that are in very poor condition. In my case, a sword has not lost springiness (I'm not going to use a sword for cutting). The surface is dull because of usage of molten paraffin (for conservation).
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