Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st August 2011, 10:46 AM   #1
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default Yemeni? Silver Cartridge belt or Bandolier

Hi Chaps,

I wonder if anyone here has insights into date & origin of this cartridge belt?

I am guessing Yemen but not realy my field, Any photos of such in use? I think its probably coin silver but havent tested it.

Theres variation on the lower end internal diameters of each tube, anything from 11mm to 14 mm.

I love how its been worn enough to have a slink where it fitted over someones hips.

spiral









spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2011, 03:20 PM   #2
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,148
Default

Hello Spiral. What a terriffic item!!! Never seen one like it. I own an old beat-up leather one - Turkish I think? Where did you ever find it?
It doesn't look like it, but could it be Egyptian? The reason I ask: You mention the inside diameter being between 11MM and 14MM. From the late 1860's through the late 1880's there was a cartridge identified as a 11MM (.43) Egyptian, used by the Egyptian Government - and others I'm sure. (There was also a 11MM Spanish cartridge). It was a bottle neck cartridge with an 11MM bullet to about 14MM at the base of the case. Hmmmm, maybe your belt was made for that cartridge? Just a thought. If you have access or know an old cartridge collector you could try different samples and see if one fits best. This would give you an approximate time frame your belt was in use. Just an idea. In any case, a great find!!! If you ever decide to part with it........... Rick.
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2011, 06:46 PM   #3
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,143
Default

WOW!!! ENVY ENVY
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2011, 08:55 AM   #4
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Cheers Rick! It does look like the .43 Egyption would proberly fit then, With a base diameter of 14mm but would guess other old blackpowder & early smokeless cartrigides would as well? As you say I need to see a cartridge collector.

Thanks Kahnjar! Do you think Yemini seems right or could it be something else?

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2011, 09:18 AM   #5
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Hi Jonathan.
Interesting thing, don't remember seeing one like it before.
Drag it along to one of the military fairs near us and you might be able to find someone with de-ac cartridges for WW1/2 rifles to try in it?
Would .303's fit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2011, 12:32 PM   #6
Michael Blalock
Member
 
Michael Blalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 266
Default

It does not look Yemeni or middle eastern to me. It could be from the golden triangle.
Michael Blalock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2011, 06:19 PM   #7
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Cheers Rick! It does look like the .43 Egyption would proberly fit then, With a base diameter of 14mm but would guess other old blackpowder & early smokeless cartrigides would as well? As you say I need to see a cartridge collector.

Thanks Kahnjar! Do you think Yemini seems right or could it be something else?

Spiral

I realy have no idea as to origin and have not seen anything like it before (sadly!) As to what would fit, there is a book (similar sort of thing to Gun Digest) called Cartridges of the World. This shows dimensions of all?? known cartridges split into Military, Sporting etc. I feel sure that you will be able to find someone local to you who has a copy you could borrow. I have a copy here but it would be quite a long job to sort out what would fit your belt, though if you would give me base and top diam and also cartridge length I will see if I can find anything that would fit. It could also be made to hold powder dispensers for muzzle loaders rather than complete cartridges.
Regards Stuart
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2011, 11:12 PM   #8
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Cheers Gene took it up to a friend today who dropped a deactivated .303 into it for me, it just caught on the rim {so diameter or the fat part of tube must be about 13.5 } but I dont think thats what it was made for.

In a bandolier the base of cartridge would need to be able to be grasped I think. So someting bigger than a .303 it seems.

Thanks Stuart, theres enough variation in the sizes or how deep the rounds should sit that without someone dropping exactly the right round into it I think it would be hard to be sure. Interesting though that it could also hold powder dispensers! Thank you much though.

Great input Michael! I am a more than a little surprised though! I thought the small soldered balls & fretwork in this style were certanly classical Arab tribal or possibly even Yemeni or beduin work silver work? But as I said not realy my field, gos to show a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

Ive handled much pre. ww2 silver work years ago mostly from Burma but some Thai, {Siam then of course..} & cant see any connection?

The lack of an obvious plant or animal symbolism in such hand made piece strikes me as very Muslim? {Although perhaps the symbols on the buckle might represent some creature in a very base form.}

Something of a mystery so far it seems! mmmmmmmm Interesting!

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2011, 07:50 PM   #9
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Ok this is getting interesting a fellow forumite emailed me this photo today..





Clearly Very similar piece & workmanship. Cartridges look like heavy calibre late 19th century pieces to me.

Apparently from the Sheikh Faisal Bin Quasim museam in Quater. Where its displayed as a c.1910 Yemeni piece in solid silver according to my friends recollection.

So Arab manufacture seems extremly likely? Perhaps Yemini even? depending on the Quater museams research or provenance?

What makes it look non Arab to your eyes Michael? Could it be from a particular ethnic group or culture perhaps?

Spiral

Last edited by spiral : 3rd August 2011 at 10:39 PM. Reason: slip up in copy & paste that read appalingly.
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2011, 08:06 PM   #10
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Very interesting Jonathan.
I gotta say that the cartridges in the pic look like Martini Henry.
But I think Rick's .43 sounds like a front runner.
The calibre of the cartridge will also help in dating. I'd guess that the date of 1910 is going to be pretty close (or slightly before) if the cartridge is right in the new picture. It looks like it's 'chambered' for pre copper-jacket amunition.
Also of course, if it's bigger than .303, then thats a hell of a slug!
Here's a picture from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

With a few carts to compare with the .303 on the end, perhaps it'll give more of an idea of what you're looking for?
The description is:
(From Left to Right): A .577 Snider cartridge, a Zulu War-era rolled brass foil .577/450 Martini-Henry Cartridge, a later drawn brass .577/450 Martini-Henry cartridge, and a .303 British Mk VII SAA Ball cartridge.
Attached Images
 
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2011, 10:03 PM   #11
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Thanks Gene, the heavy calibre Brit cartridges look to fat at the cartridge base to be plausible I think, so agree .43 Egyptian seems most likely so far, although I understand from my .303 friend there were similar sized Turkish & Mauser rounds, {If I took that in correctly.} which I havent looked into yet. {He didnt have any to hand, sadley.}

I reckon the calibre is round the .43 to .45 range though.

mmmmmmmm

Think were getting nearer....

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011, 12:51 AM   #12
Michael Blalock
Member
 
Michael Blalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 266
Default

The chiseled pattern in the silver does not look Yemeni to me but who knows, it could be. I will look around and see if I can find some decoration that matches this pattern. It's an interesting item.
Michael Blalock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011, 08:15 AM   #13
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,199
Default

Nice belt, I think its yemeni. The chiseling looks identical to one of my yemenite jews made jambiya. Here are the pictures:
Attached Images
     
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011, 09:14 AM   #14
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Thanks Michael, all help appreciated.

Excelent Alnakkas! Wow! Thank you ! That realy clinches it as Yemenite Jewish silverwork I think!

Is there an inscription date on your Jambiya by any chance? It looks a lovely & unusuasl piece to my eye.

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011, 10:20 AM   #15
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,199
Default

Hey Spiral,

The inscription on the stamp doesnt show clearly, its too dirty and I fear cleaning it as it may damage the inscription.

Check my other yemenite knife (said to be jewish work. Well the maker name fits aswell):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Abdullatif

So imo, your belt is yemeni and early 20th century maybe late 19th

Regards,

Abdullatif
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011, 11:00 PM   #16
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Thank you for the link & your thoughs Abdullatif. They have helped as lot.

Jonathan

AKA spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:32 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.