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Old 21st July 2011, 11:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade?
there is no seal of Solomon, nor any sign of Islamic origin talismanic on this blade
you're right, I just brought my little knowledge about the talismanic symbols of Islamic origin,
to show what they were

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Old 21st July 2011, 11:41 PM   #32
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sorry ... doubloon

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Old 22nd July 2011, 08:07 AM   #33
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Default Ukkil Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago

Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here:
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113
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Old 22nd July 2011, 08:33 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here:
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113

Thanks Alam Shah!

Do you have this book and can you find symbols in it which you find back on the images posted?

I've just had a quick look at ebay, and I found only one example for EUR 392,75
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Old 22nd July 2011, 10:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom
Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon"

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

+

Dom


Very nice collection of medicine, or poison, bowls, Dom!
I have mostly read about them when I studied Islamic Magic at the University but never seen as many as you have at once. Do you collect talismanic shirts, mirrors, locks and containers too? If so I would appreciate if you could mail me some pictures as references.
The reason why I wrote, "what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners)" is that I don't know where Cato got that name. I have not seen it in use outside his book.
The symbol, and its meaning as I described it above, is however well documented. My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Michael
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Old 22nd July 2011, 12:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Thanks Alam Shah!

I've just had a quick look at ebay, and I found only one example for EUR 392,75


You can get one at US143.95 here..
http://www.kabayancentral.com/book/.../mb5504809.html
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Old 22nd July 2011, 08:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?
Hi Michael
which book/s could I recommend to you ...
I'm a self made man, and my training, it's the one of the street
anyway, thanks for the reference that you gave me,
I found this book in sale, and I will get it
PM in your in box,
otherwise we will be too much "out of subject", comparatively to "Ethnographic Weapons "

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Dom

Last edited by Dom : 22nd July 2011 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 10:18 PM   #38
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Thanks Dom for your very interesting mail!
Another good reference book for those interested is the anthology Magic and Divination in Early Islam (2004), Emilie Savage-Smith (ed.).
The pentagram on Ron's kris is described as one of the seven magic signs in this book. It is also representing Solomon in Islamic symbolism, like on the Moroccan flag, but is much more rare for talismans than The Seal of Solomon that Dom referred to above.

Michael
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Old 24th July 2011, 09:48 AM   #39
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i believe this 'guy' has been in this forum before. was there a translation made earlier? if not, perhaps we can kindly request dom to do it for us? thanks in advance!
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Old 24th July 2011, 09:49 AM   #40
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the one above is now in 'antropologia' museum in madrid. this barung on the other hand is in museo naval, in madrid also ...
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Old 24th July 2011, 01:02 PM   #41
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Through these markigns, it is most interesting to note the importance placed on the Kris within the culture.

Personally I'd prefer a long and hefty Barong over a Kris in a fight but seeing how many Kris carry important cultural markings vs how many Barong, Kampilan and spears carry the same markings, it shows the importance of this weapon in it's cultural context.

Thanks to all who have shared their collections.

Gav
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Old 24th July 2011, 02:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by migueldiaz
perhaps we can kindly request dom to do it for us?
as far as it's in Arabic language,
it's a pleasure ... but here, it's not the case

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Dom

ps/ I do not forget those who are on stand-by
need few time again ...
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Old 25th July 2011, 01:04 AM   #43
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Dom, maraming salamat! [many thanks!]
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Old 2nd August 2011, 05:06 PM   #44
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Inlaid blade on a junggayang kris.
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Old 3rd December 2011, 01:35 PM   #45
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Maurice, can you provide some photos of the scabbard? i notice the mark "XIIX". are there any more marks???
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Old 3rd December 2011, 08:22 PM   #46
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No, that is the only mark. ;-)

Michael
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:14 PM   #47
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some more talismanic inlaid krises. enjoy!
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:19 PM   #48
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the robotic kris, and another one:
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:46 PM   #49
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i swear the kamagong ball pommel reminds me of an opium poppy. also, i might as well add the Sultan kris since i believe the mark on the blade could be considered as talismanic. and finally, a group picture...
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Old 12th November 2012, 02:44 AM   #50
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Great examples Ron! You have been a busy boy!

I like that centipede type animal on one of those blades.

Would you post a picture of the whole sultan's piece please?
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Old 12th November 2012, 03:00 AM   #51
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QUITE A NICE SELECTION. ARE THEY ALL FROM THE SAME MORO GROUP ,AND IF SO CAN WE ASSUME THAT GROUP USED TALSMANIC SYMBOLS ON THEIR BLADES MORE THAN OTHER GROUPS.?
I WONDER IF THE DESIGN I THINK OF AS A CENTEPEDE SUCH AS THE ONE ON YOUR BLADE IS THE SAME DESIGN AS THE ONE ON WHAT YOU REFER TO AS THE ROBOTIC KRIS. THE INLAYED STAR SHAPES REPRESENTING THE LEGS AND THE DESIGN AT THE END REPRESENTING THE HEAD AS IT IS SIMULAR TO THE CENTEPEDE HEAD ON THE OTHER DESIGN.
HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES THAT MAY REPRESENT THE SAME CREATURE BUT IN 3 DIFFERENT WAYS ONLY ONE CLEARLY REPRESENTED AS A CREATURE WITH MANY LEGS AND A HEAD AND MOUTH. THE OTHER TWO PERHAPS IN THE ABSTRACT AS IS MORE COMMON TO ISLAM. WHAT DO YOU THINK.?
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Old 12th November 2012, 12:14 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
QUITE A NICE SELECTION. ARE THEY ALL FROM THE SAME MORO GROUP ,AND IF SO CAN WE ASSUME THAT GROUP USED TALSMANIC SYMBOLS ON THEIR BLADES MORE THAN OTHER GROUPS.?


they belong from various ethnic groups. as far as the assumption that a particular tribe used more talismanic symbols than the other ones; it's impossible to tell, but as far as belief in the metaphysical, i would say they are all pretty even. this belief extends to the christian neighbors as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
I WONDER IF THE DESIGN I THINK OF AS A CENTEPEDE SUCH AS THE ONE ON YOUR BLADE IS THE SAME DESIGN AS THE ONE ON WHAT YOU REFER TO AS THE ROBOTIC KRIS. THE INLAYED STAR SHAPES REPRESENTING THE LEGS AND THE DESIGN AT THE END REPRESENTING THE HEAD AS IT IS SIMULAR TO THE CENTEPEDE HEAD ON THE OTHER DESIGN.
HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES THAT MAY REPRESENT THE SAME CREATURE BUT IN 3 DIFFERENT WAYS ONLY ONE CLEARLY REPRESENTED AS A CREATURE WITH MANY LEGS AND A HEAD AND MOUTH. THE OTHER TWO PERHAPS IN THE ABSTRACT AS IS MORE COMMON TO ISLAM. WHAT DO YOU THINK.?


i think the stars appearing as legs could have just been a coincidence, barry. i have seen these two designs as separate entities. although the "Audi" pattern would be a good candidate for a more an even more abstract form of the Naga.

Quote:
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Would you post a picture of the whole sultan's piece please?

here it is Jose, i posted this i believe about a year ago.
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Old 12th November 2012, 12:18 PM   #53
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two more talismanic blades
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Old 12th November 2012, 03:07 PM   #54
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Beautiful Ron...nice showing...
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Old 12th November 2012, 04:26 PM   #55
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Nice ones, Ron!!!

I am rereading Emelie Savage-Smith's great anthology Magic and Divination in Early Islam (2004) at the moment and found this statement in her introduction (page xix). I know some of the forumites hold the opinion that the Moros were isolated from Arabic culture. However, for those of us who don't think so this quote might be interesting to explain the scorpions and, especially, the dogs found on some Moro blades:

"Many of the pre-Islamic beliefs and practices were assimilated into the emerging Islamic culture. Pre- Islamic magical imagery featuring lions, serpents, and scorpions can be seen on several types of magical artefacts, such as amulets and magic-medicinal bowls. There was concern for sudden death (associated with the evil eye) - explaining a nexus of symbols (scorpion/serpent/mad dog) that occur on the earliest amulets, all of which could be interpreted as omens of sudden death."

Michael
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Old 13th November 2012, 02:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Nice ones, Ron!!!

I am rereading Emelie Savage-Smith's great anthology Magic and Divination in Early Islam (2004) at the moment and found this statement in her introduction (page xix). I know some of the forumites hold the opinion that the Moros were isolated from Arabic culture. However, for those of us who don't think so this quote might be interesting to explain the scorpions and, especially, the dogs found on some Moro blades:

"Many of the pre-Islamic beliefs and practices were assimilated into the emerging Islamic culture. Pre- Islamic magical imagery featuring lions, serpents, and scorpions can be seen on several types of magical artefacts, such as amulets and magic-medicinal bowls. There was concern for sudden death (associated with the evil eye) - explaining a nexus of symbols (scorpion/serpent/mad dog) that occur on the earliest amulets, all of which could be interpreted as omens of sudden death."

Michael


thanks, mike and dave!
yes, indeed. this is somewhat in line with lorenz's thread, A sword design theory (Phil., Indonesia, & Malaysia). mixing the old beliefs with the newer ones.
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Old 13th November 2012, 03:24 PM   #57
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Ron and Michael, many thanks!
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Old 28th November 2012, 01:50 AM   #58
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Hi I like to share my old moro keris which have Talismanic symbols....and i like also to consult this sword about its age, whether it is 19th or 20th century..... by the way about the cloth cover of the sword i think it was put later on, but the wooden scabbard is quit look old already and its handle..
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Old 20th December 2012, 01:39 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
David,

Of course I understood that you were joking (= "Ha, ha, But seriously...") but it also made me aware that maybe not all forumites are familiar with this concept.
However I also think there might be a problem when you spell it "magick square". For me you then are not directly referring to this specific concept but doing a personal belief (maybe in a way a semi-religious?) statement were the concept of "magick" (vs. "non-Crowleyan etc." magic) is stressed more than what we are discussing.

Michael

Sorry i didn't notice your comment earlier Michael, but a current thread sent me back here and i just noticed your response. To clear up your misconception, my use of the spelling "magick" is my way of distinguishing the commonly held idea of magic (hocus pocus stage magic and slight of hand) from it's more occult forms. Has nothing to do with Crowley. Sorry if this causes you confusion, but i will in all probability continue to use this spelling when discussing magick in this context.
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Old 20th December 2012, 06:09 AM   #60
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David,

It was Aleister Crowley who defined (stipulated) the difference between the two kinds of magic (magic vs magick) you describe. I assumed in my comment that you were aware of this fact based on your interest in "magick". Obviously I was wrong on this. My comment that the term "magick" is semi religious of course presupposed that you were familiar with its background.

Michael
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