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Old 27th July 2011, 12:58 AM   #1
Sajen
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Default Unknown weapon

A few days ago this ended on ebay and i am curious to know what it is and I am sure that someone will know the name and origin. I think that it comes from SEA. It is 20" long, the blade is 7" and 1/2" thick.

Thank you,

Detlef
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:55 AM   #2
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It kind of looks like a Bagobo sangi on steroids. Maybe a larger brush cutting version?
What ever it is it looks to be very well made. Nice find.

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Old 27th July 2011, 03:01 AM   #3
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Looks like it'd be really good for shaving sticks or peeling big fruits...
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Old 27th July 2011, 03:42 AM   #4
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Hey Detlef,

I tried to find if there where any past threads on this one...thought there where but maybe it was just some discussions before I remember???

I don't know the name for these, but they are a nice style of utility knife you will find in Thailand, and neighboring countries. You might commonly hear about it called a rattan splitter. The long curved handle is functional because you can use your forearm, knee, stomach it to brace/stabilize the blade which allows you to do either a push or draw cut

Here are some other examples:
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Old 27th July 2011, 07:39 AM   #5
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Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:54 PM   #6
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AFAIK Nathaniel is essentially correct. Additionally to splitting rattan though, these long handled knives are used for carving wood. Not only does the long handle allow the blade to be driven with the shoulder or belly using the weight and power of the torso, but the massive blade reduces chatter/vibration/wiggle and gives stability to the cut.
On the other hand, SE Asia often shows a close kinship between fighting and work forms and Alan Maisey's highly decorated example is interesting. On an even longer handle, still often curved, there are cutting spears much like this, though they lack the widened butt for pushing against.
I've been drooling over this item, but buying others......
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Old 27th July 2011, 05:39 PM   #7
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It is hard to deny that this knife must be related to the examples shown. A recent visitor whos oppions I found I had to respect suggested that this knife was from Asian Islands. I thought it could be some kind of fancy "Nifo Oti"

It is 21 inches long, blade 6.75 inches long, much the same as the item Detlef started the topic with. The blade is thin, 3mm at the very most near the forte, 5mm at the curl. The trouble is to me the handle decoration seems so not Asian? also the ferrule is is just bent round and not solderd or braised the ends just butting up to each other which does not strike me as Asian unless Island in the very extreme of east Asia? It would be great to find an answer. I no longer collect Asian weapons or any blades unless very unusual.
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Old 27th July 2011, 10:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Here is a pic of something I sold about 8 or 9 years ago.

I was told by somebody who should know a lot more than I do about Indian culture and society, that it is a ritual razor. It was pretty big, maybe 12 or 14 inches long, however held like a razor it was quite easy to use as one.

Yes, its gold koftgari and the ferrule was gold.

I apologise for the photo, its a pic of a pic, done by artificial light at night, with P&P camera.


Wow, that is quite the fancy one! I've never seen one that decorative...just the simple utility pieces. Thanks for sharing! Always fun to see something you haven't seen before :-)
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Old 29th July 2011, 12:47 AM   #9
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Tim, pretty sure yours is African
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Old 29th July 2011, 01:37 PM   #10
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To me it looks like a Pisau Raut / Pisau Wali / Pisau Coret of Peninsular Malaysia or Penat of Sarawak

mohd
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Old 29th July 2011, 05:03 PM   #11
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Can we take this further,

http://manzuritasuki.multiply.com/p...walipisau_coret

Not very helpful? The visitor that suggested my piece was from Island Asia? could mean old Malaya or Borneo?
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Old 29th July 2011, 08:05 PM   #12
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Untill more information is forth coming. I speculate that the example I have is some kind of Malaysian island sacrificial razor? Animist/Islamic fusion? Though I still do not see the carved decoration as Asian?
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Old 5th August 2011, 10:45 PM   #13
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RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.
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Old 6th August 2011, 02:09 AM   #14
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Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread.

The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked.

Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me.

I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.
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Old 6th August 2011, 03:44 AM   #15
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NO DOUBT THE FORM CHANGED FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND THE QUALITY AND DIFFERENT USES VARIED AS WELL. THE LONG CURVED HANDLE AND SHAPE OF BLADE ALOWS FOR USING PLENTY OF PRESSURE AS WELL AS HAVING SMOOTH STABLE CONTROL SO DELICATE WORK CAN BE DONE. I WOULD CERTIANLY CONSIDER SHAVEING ONES SELF OR SOMEONE IMPORTANT A DELICATE OPERATION AS IN THE LATTER YOUR LIFE MIGHT DEPEND ON A GOOD JOB.
I COULD SEE YOUR EXAMPLE ONLY BEING USED PERHAPS TO SHAVE A HEAD OF AN IMPORTANT PERSON AND PERHAPS IN DIFFERENT RITUALS DEFINITELY NOT A COMMON WORK KNIFE. LESS FANCY ONES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AS WORK KNIVES AS WELL AS FOR PERSONEL HYGENE OR IN SPECIAL RITUALS AS WELL.
ALL OF THSE KNIFES REMINDS ME OF THE SMALL SIDE KNIFE (PISAU RAUT) CARRIED IN THE BACK POUCHES OF SOME DAYAK WEAPONS. THESE KNIVES WERE USED TO CARVE WOOD AND WORK FIBER AS WELL AS TO GROOM THE OWNER, SHAVEING TRIMING HAIR OR FINGERNAILS ECT.
SO FAR WE HAVE SIMULAR KNIVES FROM SEVERAL DIFFERENT COUNTRYS THE ONE IN STONES BEING FROM SIAM (THAILAND) IF USED ONLY IN RITUAL IT WOULD NO DOUBT BE USED IN BUDIST CEREMONY. NO DOUBT THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES IN HINDU , MALAY, INDONESIAN AND OTHER CULTURES
UNFORTUNATELY THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY FOR CERTIAN ABOUT THE FIRST KNIFE IS COOL WELL MADE KNIFE AND PRETTY WOOD.
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Old 6th August 2011, 05:55 PM   #16
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I can understand Alan's concerns about drift from the example Detlef started the topic with. Perhaps we are not even half way through? In many ways I see the only point of this forum is to drift or remain forever stuck on a straight line. Plenty of time to return to the start after cogitation of all similar forms. This brings to mind a saying equally relevant to arts and crafts that "no man is an island"

This is the example Barry brings to note from "Stone" it is actually quite a bit larger. Have an 8 inch blade and the handle is horn 24 inches long. I would say that was a substantial weapon.
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Old 6th August 2011, 06:02 PM   #17
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Now talking about the example I post here. The decoration is throwing me. One might liken the decoration to work from Samoa or Tonga? but also look at these artifacts from Roumania. As I stated this just does not look like Asian decoration? To me anyway, however the form seems to comform to an Asian origin.
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Old 6th August 2011, 07:05 PM   #18
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Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.
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Old 7th August 2011, 12:11 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=Indianajones]Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.[/Q


There would seem to be a relation to (other) tanged SE Asian choppers such as the long handled Naga dao as well? Note however that the handle is always curved and that it relates to both dha and European medieval wood carving knives with similar long handles (ie the long handled wood carving knife is not an isolated thing by any means!)
Tim's piece, which still looks African to me, is, at least, not typical, and none of the other ones have projections on their handles.
Interesting point about the spur projecting from the peak of the clip on one or two (depending on Tim's) examples.
The zig zag decoration is usually known in English as "hound's tooth"
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