Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th June 2011, 08:44 PM   #1
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default Moro Kris

been looking for a kamagong ball pommel for awhile. as far as beauty, they're pretty much up there with the junggayan stuff, i think. the unique talismanic symbols on the blade is a plus. what's interesting is an unusual mark by the elephant trunk which looks like the roman numeral 1. but most of all, it has a provenance.
a kalis given by HRH Sultan Jamalul-Kiram II to (then) Capt. Charles Howland
Attached Images
       
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2011, 08:54 PM   #2
Maurice
Member
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,298
Default

Hey....This is not a barung? ;-)

Beautifull kris Ron.
you keep amazing me!

Can you tell us some more about the provenance?



Maurice
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2011, 09:50 PM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,688
Default

Nice piece - glad you finally got one........

Silver mounts look nice and shiny...........
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2011, 11:35 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,963
Default

Very nice kris! And a beautiful pommel.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 05:03 AM   #5
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

thanks detlef... of course jose, gotta bring it back to its glory days, hehe.
maurice, i'm still researching this capt. howland. i know he was stationed in luzon in the early days of the phil-am war, but don't know anything after that..
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 09:25 AM   #6
mrwizard
Member
 
mrwizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Posts: 102
Default

Very nice Kris, the silver and the (ebony?) pommel match perfectly

Howland published an article about the philippine insurrection. If you can find a copy this would make a nice addition to the kris.
Howland, Charles R. "The Philippine Insurrection of 1899: A Study." Infantry Journal XXX (Apr 1927): pp. 395-406. Per.

Best Regards,
Thilo
mrwizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 09:43 AM   #7
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

nice!!
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 02:54 PM   #8
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

thanks thilo! i will check up on that...
@ lorenz: lol, i keep looking for the "like" button for your post, but i just remember, this ain't facebook...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 03:33 PM   #9
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
@ lorenz: lol, i keep looking for the "like" button for your post, but i just remember, this ain't facebook...
haha, same here earlier. when i saw the kris, my pavlovian reflex was to look for the "like" button! we are spending way too much time on facebook, my friend
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 03:55 PM   #10
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 04:27 PM   #11
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,635
Default

Very nice kris, pommel, provenance and plaque!!!

Michael
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 05:08 PM   #12
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?

I have to agree. Was this work recently done?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 05:19 PM   #13
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?


i'm thinking this particular kalis has been in storage for a while, lew. originally, the handle was badly tarnished, and in the spirit of the Silver Surfer and other krises that's in my collection before him, i was obliged to blinged it up. of note is a rattan band i noticed that was used to wrap the handle prior to applying the silver bands...
Attached Images
 
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 05:28 PM   #14
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I have to agree. Was this work recently done?


no sir. everything is original as far as i'm concern.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 06:21 PM   #15
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Thumbs up

CONGRADULATIONS ITS A BEAUTY AND UNUSUAL TO HAVE PROVENANCE SO THATS A BIT OF EXTRA ICING ON THE CAKE.
HOW LONG IS THE KERIS? PERHAPS THE BRASS PLATE WITH PROVENANCE IS VERY LARGE AND MAKES THE KERIS LOOK SMALLER THAN USUAL.
I WONDERED ABOUT THE HANDLE WHEN I FIRST SAW IT BUT ONE PICTURE SHOWING THE IVORY LAID TO REST MY SUSPECIONS AS TO AGE. IT IS POSSIBLE A FANCIER HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN PUT WITH A OLDER BLADE TO MAKE IT MORE WORTHY FOR PRESENTATION BUT IF SO IT WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DONE IN 1902.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 06:56 PM   #16
mross
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
been looking for a kamagong ball pommel for awhile. as far as beauty, they're pretty much up there with the junggayan stuff, i think. the unique talismanic symbols on the blade is a plus. what's interesting is an unusual mark by the elephant trunk which looks like the roman numeral 1. but most of all, it has a provenance.
a kalis given by HRH Sultan Jamalul-Kiram II to (then) Capt. Charles Howland

Spunjer,
I agree. These are really nice looking and few and far between. I don't usually carp over lost auctions, but my biggest regret is one of these I lost out several years ago. Even posted about it. Nice find. Good provenance. All around good deal.
mross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2011, 07:57 PM   #17
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

thanks mross... i think these types (kamagong and ivory dots) are a class by themselves. it screams strictly sulu.
vandoo, the blade is about 21 inches, average in size. the plate is indeed on the larger side. interesting in that the Moro Campaign in Mindanao was in full swing (in 1902). i'm wondering what this captain howland was doing in Sulu. as a captain at that time, i'm assuming with that rank, he's a company commander, unless he's some sort of an executive officer to garner a gift from the sultan himself. nevertheless, the kris came with some pretty good historical trivia with it.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2011, 06:26 PM   #18
CharlesS
Member
 
CharlesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,511
Default

Very NOice!
CharlesS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2011, 08:50 PM   #19
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Thumbs up

well, seems to be moro stuff doesn't garner much discussion around here anymore, but just in case someone google Capt. Charles R. Howland and this thread pops up, i would like to add this information for future reference:

Quote:
Born in Jefferson, Ohio. Graduated from USMA West Point in June of 1891 and assigned to 20th Infantry Regiment. During the Philippine-American War, a 1st Lt., he was appointed a Captain of U.S. Volunteers in the 28th US Volunteer Infantry Regiment. The 28th fought in Luzon and northern Mindanao and was decommissioned in May of 1901, which is when his volunteer commission expired. He received a permanent promotion to Captain in the 27th Infantry Regiment on Feb 2, 1901. The 27th Infantry was stationed across Moroland in early 1901 and a battalion was at Jolo.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 01:20 AM   #20
Nonoy Tan
Member
 
Nonoy Tan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 283
Default

A very good specimen of history!
Nonoy Tan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 02:15 AM   #21
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,688
Default

Again what is great (besides the bling ) is the fact that you have great provenance with it.
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 03:07 PM   #22
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

That's one thing about moro weapons: tho we know each are custom made to an individual, we may never know the name of the original owner. Unlike the yataghans and some other middle eastern swords where the name of the original owner were somtimes found on the blade, it's not so with the moro stuff. There's only two other moro weapo
ns i've seen and read that could be attributed to the original owner: a dagger that was given by Datu Piang to Webb Hayes, and a kris that belonged to Datu Natangkup that's in the National Museum in the philippines, as mentioned on cato's book.
I do find the blade interesting in that if we go by what cato wrote, it's a mindanao blade...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 04:42 PM   #23
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,688
Default

There was also a lot of trade between Sulu and the Maguindanao............
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 05:53 PM   #24
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

That would have been my first impulse, jose, but i just find it hard to believe that all blades that are misplaced based on cato's categorization can be easily dismissed as a "traded blade."
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 07:43 PM   #25
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,688
Default

Not saying all are trade blades but certainly there was trade between these areas. Note that for example Magindanao pieces do also have woven silver bands like the Sulu.

I also wonder if this could be a type of cross over of which Cato is not aware.

We certainly need more information than Cato provides. Wish Cecil would come out with his book...

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 11:31 PM   #26
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2011, 11:34 PM   #27
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,285
Default

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2011, 01:49 AM   #28
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,527
Question

Re pic #4 ; couldn't that just be where the patina was left ?

A shadow line from a not-so-complete clean ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2011, 02:24 AM   #29
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,661
Default

Quote:
Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.


well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

Quote:
The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt


perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?



Quote:
I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.


right you are, jose. the symbols on the blade and the silverwork on the bands screams sulu.
Attached Images
 
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2011, 02:30 AM   #30
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,688
Default

Does this datu Piang gunong have a silver hilt?
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:10 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.