Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st April 2011, 03:16 PM   #31
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.
Attached Images
  
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2011, 03:17 PM   #32
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

The blade.
Attached Images
 
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2011, 04:41 PM   #33
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.

I love this keris...
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2011, 04:51 PM   #34
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
BTW, it is the complete time the labeling Palembang used for all shown keris but I have read and listen that keris or better the shown hilts are from the neighbouring area Pasemah. Is this correct?
Here a fine example with a ivory hilt.

Detlef
Hi Detlef, perhaps you're right. While I was in Jakarta last year at a keris event (KFTW), I've talked to a dealer from Pasemah. He was showing his items for sale and I've noticed quite a fair bit of this form. However, I've not been to Pasemah. Currently, I was told there's a research group studying Sumatran keris. Hopefully we'll see the findings converted into a book.
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2011, 12:03 AM   #35
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

I think the use of the term "Palembang" to refer to the earlier kerises shown is just for convenience. I don't believe all of them came from Palembang area itself. Palembang was the centre of the Sriwijaya empire, so there would probably have been a 'high culture' of keris there, which spread outwards to other parts of the kingdom. Pasemah could have been one of these areas, which explains the similarity in sheath forms. But is the "abstract man" hilt an exclusive regional form to Pasemah only? Even that form has a few variations.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2011, 11:55 AM   #36
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
While I was in Jakarta last year at a keris event (KFTW), I've talked to a dealer from Pasemah. He was showing his items for sale and I've noticed quite a fair bit of this form. However, I've not been to Pasemah. Currently, I was told there's a research group studying Sumatran keris. Hopefully we'll see the findings converted into a book.


Pasemah is not a city but an ethnic group living in the Western hills of South Sumatra and the name of the area (Pasemah plateau) is derived from this group. I did not visit the area as well but heard from several sources in Indonesia that this style of Durga? hilt originates from Bengkulu, a large city on the West coast of South Sumatra and not far from the Pasemah area.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2011, 12:07 PM   #37
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.


This piece is deemed to originate from Jambi because of the wide blade especially. However I cannot guarantee it and I bought it without hilt so the combination may not be correct.
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2011, 12:14 PM   #38
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,650
Default

Please forgive me, but i have lost the direction of this thread. I do, of course, understand that threads morph from one topic to another, but i am not certain exactly what we are trying to determine at this point, though i am enjoying the examples being shown...
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2011, 10:38 PM   #39
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Please forgive me, but i have lost the direction of this thread.
Sorry, probably the direction got lost because I did not reply yet.
But I also like the pictures that are being posted now. Please continue
Quote:
I think the way some keris hilts are previously fixed (for lefty or right) probably can be seen at the bend of the tang. Some Malay keris will have a slight bend of the tang towards either side of the blade (if you see it from the front of the gandik). Probably to suit a lefty or a right handed person.
@Rasdan
The peksi bends towards the front of the gandik, but unfortunately there is no bend to either side of the blade.


Quote:
The issue you have is that the hilt seems to be sitting a bit too tall. The keris coming from a pre-WW2 collection may not preclude the hilt being switched at some point before it went into the collection. If I may may make an observation, the hilt's finishing is not the same as the sheath's. We could argue that it is because the hilt is handled a lot, and the finishing's all rubbed off
@Bluerf
Correct, the hilt is sitting to tall in right hand position and it fits like a glove in left hand position. The hillt is made of horn (not wood), therefore it has a different finish. In this collection there where a few other weapons also in complete original configuration. (including a peuwarot ) So I am pretty confident that his hilt is original to the blade.

It fits so smooth in left hand position that I really think that it is the original configuration and based on reactions in this thread I will keep it in left hand configuration.

All I need now is a nice matching pendokok.
Any suggestions if this type can be bought somewhere ?
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2011, 10:37 AM   #40
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
All I need now is a nice matching pendokok.
Any suggestions if this type can be bought somewhere ?


Very difficult, I look already very long for one. Maybe ask a silver smith if he can work one for you.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2011, 09:49 PM   #41
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Maybe ask a silver smith if he can work one for you.
Maybe I can give it a try myself. without the fancy repouse work that seems to be a profession on its own.
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2011, 11:47 AM   #42
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,455
Default

Yes, try it, I have seen a few of this pendokoks without repouse work which have been just plain.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2011, 04:02 AM   #43
PenangsangII
Member
 
PenangsangII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
I think the use of the term "Palembang" to refer to the earlier kerises shown is just for convenience. I don't believe all of them came from Palembang area itself. Palembang was the centre of the Sriwijaya empire, so there would probably have been a 'high culture' of keris there, which spread outwards to other parts of the kingdom. Pasemah could have been one of these areas, which explains the similarity in sheath forms. But is the "abstract man" hilt an exclusive regional form to Pasemah only? Even that form has a few variations.


Hi Blue,

its interesting that you mentioned "Sriwijaya" in connection with "high culture of keris" in Palembang. But I think the high culture of keris in Palembang was primarily due to its proximity with Padjajaran. Historically, Palembang was a vassal state of Majapahit (previously Singhasari) thus we see a lot of wide and simple keris blade.

Last edited by PenangsangII : 26th April 2011 at 04:17 AM.
PenangsangII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2011, 04:20 AM   #44
PenangsangII
Member
 
PenangsangII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
This piece is deemed to originate from Jambi because of the wide blade especially. However I cannot guarantee it and I bought it without hilt so the combination may not be correct.


I agree with Jambi provenance due to historical evidence - Pamalayu by Kertanagara of Singhasari in late 13th Century. Indeed its a Sumatra Jambi blade with a lot of Singhasari flavor.
PenangsangII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2011, 12:57 PM   #45
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
I agree with Jambi provenance due to historical evidence - Pamalayu by Kertanagara of Singhasari in late 13th Century. Indeed its a Sumatra Jambi blade with a lot of Singhasari flavor.


Thank you Penangsang. The blade and sheath seem to be originally matching so is this style of sheath used both in East Sumatra and South Sumatra?
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2011, 02:39 PM   #46
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
Hi Blue,

its interesting that you mentioned "Sriwijaya" in connection with "high culture of keris" in Palembang. But I think the high culture of keris in Palembang was primarily due to its proximity with Padjajaran. Historically, Palembang was a vassal state of Majapahit (previously Singhasari) thus we see a lot of wide and simple keris blade.


Well, the keris came out of Java. I think it is not wrong to say that it is the major kingdoms that have the resources to synthesize their own brand of 'fine' kerises, and the source of the keris culture is ultimately Java.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 08:04 AM   #47
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 111
Default

It is an old thread by now but I would like to join in with my South Sumatran 'BATMAN' keris.
Not quite large with 38 cm but large perfectly fitting blade (29,5 cm). Is this a sepokal blade with keleng pamor? Observe the curving of the batang.
Attached Images
   
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 07:28 PM   #48
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
It is an old thread by now but I would like to join in with my South Sumatran 'BATMAN' keris.
Not quite large with 38 cm but large perfectly fitting blade (29,5 cm). Is this a sepokal blade with keleng pamor? Observe the curving of the batang.

I really like that keris Paul. I'm not sure tagging it on this old thread is the best idea since the original topic here was the question of a backwards fitted hilt, not this particular style of "batman" dress. Frankly i'd say this is deserving of its own thread or maybe starting a thread on the "batman" style.
Anyway, hard to tell if this is pamor kelengan without more detailed images. Even then a pattern might be really hard to see until you apply some warangan.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 08:29 PM   #49
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 111
Default

Okay thanks, will do and prepare more / better pics.
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.