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Old 30th October 2010, 01:13 PM   #1
Alexander
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Default Dutch Cutlass

Dear colleagues. I want to learn more detailed information on the Dutch sword.
1. It concerns what armies?
2. What year model?
3. About what year it was issued?
Yours faithfully, Alexander.
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Old 1st November 2010, 07:08 PM   #2
Norman McCormick
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Hi Alexander,
Try the the search function for Klewang, you should get a lot of info on this sword.
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 1st November 2010, 07:33 PM   #3
fernando
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Do you know how to use the Search function, Alexander?
You will find several threads like this one:
CLICK HERE

.
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Old 1st November 2010, 11:14 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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Hi Alexander,
Thank you for posting your Dutch klewang.
While the search feature here is certainly an option, Im sure you posted the sword to initiate conversation, which is what we do here

As noted helpfully, the term for the sword is a klewang, which was a type of sword used by native inhabitants of Indonesia and Sumatra, I believe.,

The sword itself is a military version of these type swords, however after the order for small companies of military police, these type swords were ordered from Germany initially. They were then termed 'merechausee klewangs' (=military police) and numbers of them were made originally in Solingen.
Later with the advent of WWI, it became impossible for the Dutch to order from Germany, and as I understand, the manufacture was passed to the Dutch arsenal in HEMBRUG in the Netherlands. These swords were involved in various campaigns and conflicts in the Indonesian archipelago and others.

The US Navy adopted the pattern for its own model 1917 cutlass, and I believe these Dutch models were around until about 1940.

Those are just rudimentary details which might help in your research Alexander, and its great having you with us!!!!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 14th November 2010, 10:37 PM   #5
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Default 1917 Cutlass

Very unusual grip for this model. Also unusual is the finish which is usually a blued blade and black painted/blued guard. I have never seen one with a steel scabbard as opposed to leather. I would guess this one if it came from the factory like this was intended for an officer or perhaps parade use.

bbjw
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Old 15th November 2010, 12:05 AM   #6
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if you use the forum search on 'hembrug', all is revealed. there is a book which some of us have (i do not, darn it) that covers all the models of dutch klewang, including the originally posted one of this thread, one of which is on the cover... with luck one of the book owners will contribute in this thread....

one of the solingen german ones from my collection:

this has the more expected blued steel and riveted wood grip and leather & brass scabbard.
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Last edited by kronckew : 15th November 2010 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 15th November 2010, 12:29 AM   #7
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Fantastic things.
as a solution to a problem it would be hard to think of a more efficient tool.
Isn't there a video somewhere of a repro Klewang being bent in a vice then tested on half a pig?

Alexander:
Very nice example. Nice find!
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Old 15th November 2010, 01:22 AM   #8
Amuk Murugul
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Hullo everybody!

Alexander, I believe what you have there is an M1913 Klewang Marechaussee made by Artillerie Inrichtingen in HEMBRUG.
This one appears to have been inspected by WIERSMA, who was active around WWI.
It's difficult to be sure by the picture, but up to about 1938, they were nickel-plated and after that, chrome plated.
The piece looks all-original, but the only way to be sure is to carefully dismantle it (only if you're confident!), to make sure the numbers on each sub-piece match.
Barring that, you may like to make sure that the same 'crowned Z' stamp also appears on the screw at the top of the pommel, on the right-face of the grip collar and on the back inside of the guard.
Make sure the serial no. on the back inside of the guard matches the one on the scabbard.

BTW ..... kronckew ..... I believe that the scabbard in your picture is that of one made by MILSCO (1946-60).

Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul : 15th November 2010 at 03:44 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 15th November 2010, 08:46 AM   #9
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it's quite possible that the scabbard is a mis-match, while i am aware that dealer supplied provenances can be suspect, my klewang was supposedly recovered from an altercation between a german s-boot and british mtb in the channel here (the germans lost) with a number of others aboard the captured schnellboot that had been liberated by the germans from the dutch.

it is possible the scabbard was mismatched at the dutch depot, at the kreigsmarine when issued, after capture by the brits, or even added/mixed up by the dealer. the scabbard is brown leather (oiled) with brass chape held on by two brass staples, the re-enforcement at the throat is also brass, painted black and held on by brass rivets (also painted). it is sewn on the spine side of the scabbard.

my ex-father-in-law was a LT. in the royal navy at the time and commanded a mtb, lost a leg in a battle with a german schnellboot they captured, so i have a predilection to believing the story on my klewang

my klewang is marked 'PD LUNESCHLOSS SOLINGEN' on one side, (there is a small proof mark on the other that looks like a crowned letter of some sort), each of the three letter groups on a different line. brown wood grips, two part brass grip rivets, steel guard shell is cut with stepped corners in the european fashion, tho these are not as prominent as some others i've seen.
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Old 15th November 2010, 07:50 PM   #10
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Many thanks for the information!!!
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:35 PM   #11
Amuk Murugul
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Hullo everybody,
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
it's quite possible that the scabbard is a mis-match, while i am aware that dealer supplied provenances can be suspect, my klewang was supposedly recovered from an altercation between a german s-boot and british mtb in the channel here (the germans lost) with a number of others aboard the captured schnellboot that had been liberated by the germans from the dutch.

it is possible the scabbard was mismatched at the dutch depot, at the kreigsmarine when issued, after capture by the brits, or even added/mixed up by the dealer. the scabbard is brown leather (oiled) with brass chape held on by two brass staples, the re-enforcement at the throat is also brass, painted black and held on by brass rivets (also painted). it is sewn on the spine side of the scabbard.

my ex-father-in-law was a LT. in the royal navy at the time and commanded a mtb, lost a leg in a battle with a german schnellboot they captured, so i have a predilection to believing the story on my klewang

my klewang is marked 'PD LUNESCHLOSS SOLINGEN' on one side, (there is a small proof mark on the other that looks like a crowned letter of some sort), each of the three letter groups on a different line. brown wood grips, two part brass grip rivets, steel guard shell is cut with stepped corners in the european fashion, tho these are not as prominent as some others i've seen.

Kronckew ..... I don't know whether you're addressing the above to me or not, so I'll give an answer anyway. I'll keep it brief so as not to detract from Alexander's original post.
The crowned letter is probably a crowned 'W' (script/gothic font).This mark should be repeated on the pommel-cap screw, the rear inside of the guard and on one of the walnut scales (at the bottom, towards the ricasso). This ensures originality of parts.
I believe that your piece may be an M1911, in which case I feel more certain that the scabbard is a mis-match. (As far as I am aware, this type of scabbard was only made by MILSCO)
However, I am no authority on the matter, not by any stretch of the imagination.
My interest in the Klewang (Gobang Kalewang or simply, Kalewang to me) is only in so far as its ties with the Soenda.
Having said all that, I still stand by what I have said (in the absence of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary).

Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul : 15th November 2010 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 25th November 2010, 10:17 PM   #12
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This weapon is most likely a police klewang. The klewang no.2 police. Identical to the klewang-marechaussee M. 1913 with two differences. It is not chrome-plated but nickeled and the blade edge is sharp. This was done in the factory. In addition no KM-mark (for Koninklijke Marechaussee) can be found on the hilt.
The klewang was used from 1898 until 1968 by many police forces. Only these two klewangs had metal scabbards.
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Old 26th November 2010, 01:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
This weapon is most likely a police klewang. The klewang no.2 police. Identical to the klewang-marechaussee M. 1913 with two differences. It is not chrome-plated but nickeled and the blade edge is sharp. This was done in the factory. In addition no KM-mark (for Koninklijke Marechaussee) can be found on the hilt.
The klewang was used from 1898 until 1968 by many police forces. Only these two klewangs had metal scabbards.

Hullo Henk,

Would you be able to post a picture of a KM hilt with the KM-mark? Thanks.
I suspect that you are correct in that it is a police klewang (i.e. No. 2). I just didn't want to complicate the issue by differentiating between a KM and a No.2. (I wasn't sure about the above hilt not having a 'KM'-mark. Do they ALL have a KM-mark and it ALWAYS in the same position on the hilt?)
Also, as you will have noticed, the serial no. doesn't have a 'KM' pre-fix. ( I wasn't sure whether ALL KMs had a KM pre-fix)

Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul : 26th November 2010 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 28th November 2010, 04:39 PM   #14
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Hello Amuk Murugul,

Unfortunately I cann't place a picture of a hilt with the KM mark. I haven't a picture avaible and neither such a klewang. The place of the KM mark is on the hilt just above the handguard. All klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee have a KM mark with number and all on the same position. The klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee is a military weapon and is therefore standard on the same position.
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Old 12th December 2010, 10:16 PM   #15
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Default Marechaussee Klewang

Hello Alexander,

I own a klewang just like the one you´re having (mine has number 671) and as far as I can tell from the pictures it´s original. The Klewang I have does not have the mentioned KM mark either but I do have a letter (1986) from the director (The director in 1986 that is) of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" stating that it is an original KM Klewang (Based on photo´s I´ve sent him) I do have another Klewang with a KM mark on it (This one was investigated by Mr Puype in 1983, he is co-author of the mentioned klewang book) The KM one I have (with a leather scabbard) has been issued to the Dutch Royal navy in 1935. In this case the KM stands for "Koninklijke Marine" (Royal Navy).

I will check in the Klewang book if I can find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang. As stated earlier in another post, this type of klewang was also used by the Dutch police forces.

The Klewang is still in use today but only ceremonial. You can see the Marechausse klewang in use when the opening of the dutch parliament takes place. Every year on the third tuesday in september this is on. You can find some pictures using the search "prinsjesdag klewang". Mind you that they are probably using newly created klewangs (somewhere during the eighties, easy to recognize by their very thin layer of chrome)
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Old 14th December 2010, 06:57 PM   #16
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ruiter58,

In the first place welcome to the forum.

Can you explain to me why the director of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" is stating despite the missing KM-mark on your klewang that this is an original KM klewang and not a klewang no.2 police despite the statement of J.P. Puype, the conservator of the Dutch Army Museum and R.J. de Stürler-Boekwijt in their book Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum? The same book that you're going to check to find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang.
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Old 15th December 2010, 04:22 AM   #17
Amuk Murugul
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Default M1913 Klewang Marechaussee (KM)

Hullo everybody,

My twee-duit's worth:

I managed to rescue a KM from neglect. It had traces of chrome plate on the guard, scabbard etc. However, it was pretty much rusted. So, I decided to do an immediate cleaning. As the item was located in ..... wait for it ..... HAWAII (of all places), I decided on fruit juice as the cleanser. I disassembled it and cleaned. All parts were original to the piece. (see attached photo; please don't step on my toes )
I noticed that the serial no. had no 'KM' prefix. I sought a definitive answer to this, but to date, have had no reply from any Dutch authority/museum.
However, I seem to remember that the Leger Museum in Delft has KM's that are with and w/o this prefix.

Please enlighten me.

Best,
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Old 15th December 2010, 01:38 PM   #18
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Gentlemen,

I dropped the question about the missing K.M. prefix and still being a klewang-marechaussee despite the explaination in their book at the Legermuseum in Delft. As soon as i receive an answer (within 10 working days) i will inform you.
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Old 15th December 2010, 11:16 PM   #19
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Default Marechaussee Klewang

Hello,

thanks for the welcome. First of all I am happy not to be alone anymore.
I have attached a scan of the first lines of the letter I received from the Marechaussee museum. It is in Dutch and states that: " In an answer to your letter I herewith inform you that the Klewang number 671 is an original KMAR klewang from before 1940" I did send him a few pictures of the Klewang. Unfortunately I am not able to make photo's of the Klewang at this moment.

I think that there is a lot of confusion because we can refer to the Marechausse klewang (M1913) as a type (regardless of it's use, either by police forces or actually by the Marechaussee) or as the Klewang used by the Marechaussee (which doesn't need to be a M1913)

I am very curious what the reply of the museum will be on Henk's question. Whatever the outcome may be, this forum shows that it is a very interesting weapon and no matter how many books we can consult, we will always be stuck with unanswered questions. Once I have a camera I will post some pictures on another klewang hoping that someone can tell me some more about the marks on that one.

best regards,
Ron de Ruiter
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Last edited by ruiter58 : 16th December 2010 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 20th December 2010, 08:39 PM   #20
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Gentlemen, below i copied the original answer from the Legermuseum in Delft from my mail. Unfortunately the banner of the Legermuseum didn't come with the message.
I will try to translate the answer in english and i hope it will be understandable for everybody here.

U stelde de volgende vraag: klewang no 2 politie versus klewang-marechaussee
Antwoord:
Beste Henk,
Hartelijk dank voor je vraag.
In de vaste presentatie worden vier Sabels Marechaussee Model 1913 en een Klewang No.2 Politie Model 1913 getoond. Getoetst aan de door Puype en De Sturler opgestelde eigenschappen zouden drie van de vier Sabels Marechaussee daaraan niet geheel voldoen: het KM-stempel ontbreekt namelijk. Maar omdat de klingen verchroomd zijn en hun snede onscherp is, worden ze toch tot het type gerekend. Het stempel kan immers bij de productie vergeten aangebracht te zijn. De poltiesabel voldoet wel aan de gestelde criteria.
De onderverdeling van klewangs is, zoals i.h.a. bij zo veel andere blanke wapens, lastig gezien de voorkomende varianten en/of afwijkingen. De catalogisering van klewang is een ordening naar 'idelale' typen en biedt de helpende hand bij het nader kunnnen duiden van een klewang. Met 100% zekerheid is dat niet altijd te zeggen. Met andere woorden: voor een bepaald type klewang komen ook exemplaren in aanmerking die strikt genomen, niet geheel aan de desbetreffende eigenschappen voldoen en soms zelfs zowel tot het ene als het andere type gerekend kunnen worden.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jos Hilkhuijsen
conservator


You asked the next question: Klewang no 2 police against klewang-marechaussee
Answer:
Dear Henk,
Thank you very much for your question.
In the permanent presentation four Sabre Marechaussee Model 1913 and one Klewang No.2 Politie Model 1913 are shown. Standing the test to the by Puype en De Sturler drawn properties three of the four Sabre Marechaussee wouldn't completely content: that is because the KM-mark is not present. But because the blades are chrome-plated en the edge unsharp, they still are reckoned to the type. The mark could be forgotten to apply at the production. The policesabre does content to the drawn properties completely.
The subdividing of klewangs is, like in common to so many other cold steel weapons, rather difficult because of the occurring alternatives and or differences. The catalogue of klewang is an arrangement to 'ideal' types and gives a helping hand by pointing down a klewang. With 100% certainty we cann't always tell. In other words: for a defined type klewang also examples could be considered that taken strictly, don't completely content to the relevant properties and sometimes even could be reckoned to as well to the one as to the other type.
Kind regards,
Jos Hilkhuijsen
curator.

Gentlemen, to recapitulate we can say if a klewang Model 1913 is chrome-plated and the edge is not sharp it is a klewang-marechaussee despite the missing KM-mark that should be present according to Puype and De Sturler. And sometimes it is impossible to catagorize a klewang because it could be this or that type.

Last edited by Henk : 20th December 2010 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 20th December 2010, 11:11 PM   #21
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Hullo Henk,

Thank you for your effort.
Now I know that mine is a KM, albeit zonder the 'KM' .
It has the characteristic unsharpened edge and rounded point.

mvg,
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Old 21st December 2010, 04:52 AM   #22
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Hello Amuk Murugul

You're very welcome. It was a small effort to contact the museum in my own language.
When it is chrome-plated you may consider it as a klewang-marechaussee.

I see you speak a little bit Dutch
all the best, Henk
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Old 6th January 2011, 10:09 PM   #23
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Dear friends.
Thanks for your comments.
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