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Old 21st November 2010, 06:34 PM   #1
Spiridonov
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Default Barrel from Grandson battlefield

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Old 21st November 2010, 06:57 PM   #2
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Thank your, Alexender,


for sharing this hitherto seemingly unknown barrel.

Of course the image is vertically inverted, and I add the correct view.

This item is highly unusual in that it shows almost no clear dating criteria apart from the hexagonal form and the heavily swamped muzzle which allows dating it to the 1470's.

On the other hand, the rear section is by no means swamped the way one would expect. I have never seen an early barrel almost tapering to the rear like that. The shape of the big barrel loops is quite unusual as well. In any case, it seems to be one of the typically crude Swiss productions. The small rudimentary back sight at the rear sure is one of the earliest of its kind.


Best,
Michael
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Old 21st November 2010, 07:22 PM   #3
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Default Schloss Grandson, Switzerland, and the Museum

Some impressions, some of them photographed by the author.

Image no. 8 of course shows a very important two hand sword of Sempach type, ca. 1470.


m
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Old 21st November 2010, 07:49 PM   #4
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A tiller stocked haquebut, wrought iron, Nuremberg, made for Switzerland, ca. 1450, with sinkhole shaped touchhole on the top flat (almost identical items preserved in the Schweizerisches Landesmuseum Zürich).

A good Late Gothic crossbow with composite horn bow, ca. 1460-70.

A finely painted crossbow man's or handgunner's pavise. ca. 1480.

Below a group of newly hafted pikes and earspoon spears, a good Nuremberg bronze haquebut of ca. 1460-70, retaining an old stock, possiby the original.
A detached chamber for a breech loading cannon, ca. 1450-60, and two late 15th c. handgun barrels (sorry, no details available).

Following various firearms, on top a good and early Suhl/Thuringia/Germany made military matchlock musket, the lockplate shaped like that of a wheellock and pretending a higher technical quality than a simple matchlock, the beechwood stock slightly carved in the characteristic Suhl manner, ca. 1610-15.

m
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Old 21st November 2010, 08:13 PM   #5
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BTW, the barrel on the right looks a lot like the Grandson barrel posted by Alexender, most interestingly showing the same burst in the middle!

Actually it does not seem to be the very same piece because the left barrel loop seems to be missing.

Any comments much welcome as always,
and best as ever,

m
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Last edited by Matchlock : 21st November 2010 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 04:42 AM   #6
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Michael, It is a brilliant finding! This is exactly the same barrel It is very important for me. 'Cause it probably belongs to Burgundian wars period.
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Old 22nd November 2010, 06:58 PM   #7
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Are you really sure, Alexender,

That this is the very same barrel you posted?

If my old eyes are not deceiving me the barrel in the Grandson museum does not seem to have the rear (left) barrel loop, as I marked with the left arrow.


Best,
Michael
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Old 22nd November 2010, 08:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
If my old eyes are not deceiving me the barrel in the Grandson museum does not seem to have the rear (left) barrel loop, as I marked with the left arrow.


It seems that this detail has disappeared because photo's quality is too bad
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Old 22nd November 2010, 09:16 PM   #9
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You must be right!

m
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Old 23rd November 2010, 09:33 AM   #10
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I have great news about these barrel. I am going to post it later.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 08:37 PM   #11
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We're anxious to see it!

m
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Old 24th November 2010, 05:02 AM   #12
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It seems that the barrel are thin, long and lightweight and have a small calibre. We can ever seen so lightweight weapon in Schillings chronics. It seems that cross-section of barrel is square (probably hexagon with very obtuse angle in the up and down sides (look at the picture "A")) Now I am waiting these photo with a high resolution from one good man
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Old 24th November 2010, 03:05 PM   #13
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Oustanding, Alexander!

It certainly is a rather small caliber arquebus barrel (probably 12-15 mm), most probably hexagonal (characteristic of that period), and the overall length should be ca. 80 cm.

The image from Diebold Schilling's Berne Chronicle you seclected conveys a perfect idea of what the arquebus might have looked like, and why the barrel loops make sense.

What I am hoping moreover is that your 'good man' also has photos of the smaller (most probably bronze) arquebus barrel of ca. 1490-1510 that can be seen in the upper right corner, above our barrel in discussion.

Thank you so much
and best as always,

Michael
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Old 26th November 2010, 09:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
What I am hoping moreover is that your 'good man' also has photos of the smaller (most probably bronze) arquebus barrel of ca. 1490-1510 that can be seen in the upper right corner, above our barrel in discussion.

Hello, Michael! Unfortunatly "good man" (Иван Иванов(Ivan Ivanov)) don't have photos of these barrel. But i can share another photos from Grandson Castle. I am still waiting the photo of barrel from Grandson battlefield.
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Old 26th November 2010, 03:27 PM   #15
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Thank you for these, Alexander,

I feel now it's my turn to comment.

From top:

A rare and heavy combined cannon and haquebut barrel, South German, ca. 1500; note the additional trunnions and the flat pan that, interestingly enough, has no provision for a pivoting cover.

A fine Nuremberg cast copper alloy (most certainly bronze) haquebut barrel divided into four stages, ca. 1515, possibly dated within the raised double band on the rear stage, and extended muzzle section (Mündungskopf), and equipped with fully developed back and foresights. The pan seems to be a later repair. Just to convey an impression of how the stock looked like, I attach pictures of my contemporary Nuremberg bronze haquebut showing the very same staging of the barrel.

Two detached breech loading chambers from cannons, mid 15th c., the lower one struck with a mark in the shape of a star or a sparkle (!) right behind the touchhole. The 'linstock' is a very poor and formally inapt modern replica. Attached please find an image of an original mid 16th century linstock from my collection.

On the next two barrels, please see my comments together with the photos I posted above.

Bottom:
A small cast bronze arquebus barrrel, possibly of Swiss make, late 15th c., in excavated condition.

Best,
Michael
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Old 28th November 2010, 07:11 PM   #16
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Here is a detail of the rear section of the Grandson barrel, ca. 1470, showing the pan, touchhole and small blade back sight.

Best,
m
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Old 29th November 2010, 04:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Here is a detail of the rear section of the Grandson barrel, ca. 1470, showing the pan, touchhole and small blade back sight.

Best,
m

Thanks, Michael! I have these photo. It's ftrom "Medieval handgonne" book. But I was thinking that its a 2 different barrel because these barres are in different pages of book. So pan looks very primitive and it seems that it have not cover and never had it befor. Michael what did you mean about "blade"? What is it?
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Old 29th November 2010, 04:05 AM   #18
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Old 29th November 2010, 02:16 PM   #19
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Hi Alexander,

By blade backsight I meant that it is thin as a blade; this, as far as I know, is a common expression in English.

By now I have read the captions to the illustrations and learned that 'our' barrel in discussion was not found on, but near the Grandson battlefield site. So it is not sure that it actually saw service in that battle. This fact accounts for my suspicion that it was altered during its longer working life: the blade backsight, im my eperience, is a modernization of ca. 1500, as well as the pan and possibly the barrel loops. In the 1470's, the touchhole was still situated near the top of the barrel, and pans were unknown. All there was to the touchhole was a more or less deep molding, the earliest predecessor of a pan. Integral pans on wrought iron barrels did not show up before ca. the 1490's.

That considered, I am sure that barrel cannot have ended its working life on Grandson battlefield.

Best,
Michael
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Old 29th November 2010, 05:04 PM   #20
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A blade backsight on the rear end of a Nuremberg wrought iron haquebut, ca. 1500-10, the serpentine a working life addition of ca. 1525.

The flat and drilled rear extension (tang) originally had grips of wood or staghorn attached, like on a dagger or a Großes Messer. It ended in a ring shaped grip which is now missing, as seen on a piece from the same series and with identical maker's mark below.

m
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Old 29th November 2010, 08:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
By now I have read the captions to the illustrations and learned that 'our' barrel in discussion was not found on, but near the Grandson battlefield site. So it is not sure that it actually saw service in that battle. This fact accounts for my suspicion that it was altered during its longer working life: the blade backsight, im my eperience, is a modernization of ca. 1500, as well as the pan and possibly the barrel loops. In the 1470's, the touchhole was still situated near the top of the barrel, and pans were unknown. All there was to the touchhole was a more or less deep molding, the earliest predecessor of a pan. Integral pans on wrought iron barrels did not show up before ca. the 1490's.

Maybe it was an exception like handgonne from notebook of Lorenco Ghiberty or arquebuse from "Fuerhwerk" Maybe it was such a rare thing
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Old 29th November 2010, 10:29 PM   #22
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Hi Alexander,

Sorry but I do not believe much in exceptions to the rule as far as technical developments are concerned. Rather we know from hundreds of tate 15th c. raw barrels that were changened and rechanged, altered and modernized again and again during their later working lives, and for at least as long as the late 30th Years War (ca. 1650), and sometimes even as long as the mid-19th c. percussion era ...!

There is definitely one single and specific argument that in my opinion can't be reasonably beaten: the craftsman and art workers were not able to skip over and anticipate the both artificially and technically developing future details of development ...

Best,
Michael
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Old 5th December 2010, 11:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Hello, Michael! Unfortunatly "good man" (Иван Иванов(Ivan Ivanov)) don't have photos of these barrel. But i can share another photos from Grandson Castle. I am still waiting the photo of barrel from Grandson battlefield.



Hallo,

the bronce barrel with the trunnions was sold Galerie Fischer June 1994 and was described as french.
The bronce barrel at the bottom was found in a river in Alsace an sold at the same sale.

Best wishes
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Old 5th December 2010, 05:40 PM   #24
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Thank you, Swordfish,

for this enlightening input!

Best,
Michael
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Old 15th June 2015, 06:51 PM   #25
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Some more pictures i found on facebook from the Grandson army museum.
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Old 15th June 2015, 06:53 PM   #26
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And some more.
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