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Old 2nd October 2010, 01:55 PM   #1
Atlantia
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Default Spanish Punal for a lady?

So you know I like these, well I couldn't resist this rather nice (if simple) little example.
I don't know a huge amount about them, apart from these seem to be described as 'type B' and this is very small.
I don't think the scabbard is original to it.
Could this have been for a lady?


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Old 2nd October 2010, 05:00 PM   #2
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It is Mediterranean Spanish.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 05:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
It is Mediterranean Spanish.


Hi Battara,

Thanks, I know its Spanish, I have a bit of a weakness for this family of weapons. I've just never seen one of this type this size, and wondered if it was for a lady... possibly 'of the night'?

Best
Gene
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Old 2nd October 2010, 05:10 PM   #4
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The only published reference I have for this form (which isn't saying much considering the diminutive size of my reference library) has one of these listed as a Spanish 19th C. naval dirk (which was the reason I purchased this book, as I have a couple myself). The examples I have range in size from one about the same size as your own to one that measures about 13" in overall length, with little variation in form...
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Old 2nd October 2010, 05:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha
The only published reference I have for this form (which isn't saying much considering the diminutive size of my reference library) has one of these listed as a Spanish 19th C. naval dirk (which was the reason I purchased this book, as I have a couple myself). The examples I have range in size from one about the same size as your own to one that measures about 13" in overall length, with little variation in form...


Naval Dirk??
This must have been the 'cabin boys' then!!

I have a Type A of about 13-1/2 inches. I had one of this form a few years ago and sold it Always regretted it!
Anyway, haven't seen a nice condition one in ages, so was pleased to get this one.
I know its a plain one, but the condition is very good and its smaller than any I've encountered.
Do you think these small ones were for women?
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Old 2nd October 2010, 06:53 PM   #6
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Hello!!
This type of knife are very common from the city of Albacete and surronding aereas. You have a very beatiful example, congratulations!1
best regards
Carlos
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Old 2nd October 2010, 07:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos
Hello!!
This type of knife are very common from the city of Albacete and surronding aereas. You have a very beatiful example, congratulations!1
best regards
Carlos


Hi Carlos,
Thank you. I'm very pleased with it. I have a Large Albacete dagger of the single edged 'A' type.
Do you have a theory for the small size of this one?
Best
Gene
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Old 3rd October 2010, 08:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Naval Dirk??
This must have been the 'cabin boys' then!!



Hi Gene,

While tangental to the discussion of this particular knife, I thought I'd include a photo of my own (smaller) example along with an even more diminutive navy knife. The Spanish dagger below is about the same size as your own (I'd estimate it's maybe 3/8 of an inch smaller in overall length). Next to it is a knife made under contract for the U.S. Navy in 1864-1865, which as you can see is significantly smaller than the Spanish dagger...



I'd say the moral is to never underestimate the utility of a knife of any size, whether on land or at sea!
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Old 3rd October 2010, 11:03 PM   #9
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Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=antler


Regards David
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Old 3rd October 2010, 11:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=antler


Regards David



Not at all my friend, I'm as eagre as you to hear more about the naval attribution of these small stag hilted knives. I think one of my local dealers has one and I've ignored it for..... well, frankly months! So if it's more than just a 'vintage' sheath knife, I'll try and find it again!

As for my Spanish dagger....... I'm realy struggling to see them as dirks... But they are rather nice, and laEspadaAncha, Your one is a beauty!
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Old 4th October 2010, 12:29 PM   #11
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I'm also interested in the naval provenance, if possible (the book showing the original piece as Spanish, that is). I know in the past they have been mistaken as plug bayonets. The small grip is possible, as midshipmen in the naval forces were as young as 10. There is a major lack of information on Spanish naval weapons as far as I know.
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Old 4th October 2010, 04:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=antler


Regards David



Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.



Mark - Re: the book, I don't think it will satiate your appetite for Spanish naval reference material...

The book is a catch-all pictorial reference guide, entitled A World Encyclopedia of Swords, Daggers, and Bayonets written by one Dr. Tobias Capwell. I had bought it following an acquisition of several dozen bayonets, as bayos are (at best) a tertiary interest to me. What I found was not only did it provide a rich and diverse pictorial directory of nearly every knife form imaginable, but the author did an excellent job of describing the evolution of the oldest edged fighting implement known to man over the course of five millennia...

In the book is a chapter in the reference section entitled, "Naval Dirks of the 18th and 19th Centuries," in which this exmaple may be found. What makes it a naval dirk is unknown to me...

Regards,

Chris
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Old 4th October 2010, 05:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha
Hi Gene,

While tangental to the discussion of this particular knife, I thought I'd include a photo of my own (smaller) example along with an even more diminutive navy knife. The Spanish dagger below is about the same size as your own (I'd estimate it's maybe 3/8 of an inch smaller in overall length). Next to it is a knife made under contract for the U.S. Navy in 1864-1865, which as you can see is significantly smaller than the Spanish dagger...



I'd say the moral is to never underestimate the utility of a knife of any size, whether on land or at sea!



Hi laEspadaAncha,
The one like mine is lovely, nice scabbard too!!!
The other one is interesting, I've seen them and ignored them, thinking them mid 20thC belt knives What exactly was their function in the naval context?
Time for a reapraisal for me I think
Best
Gene
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Old 4th October 2010, 06:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi laEspadaAncha,
The one like mine is lovely, nice scabbard too!!!
The other one is interesting, I've seen them and ignored them, thinking them mid 20thC belt knives What exactly was their function in the naval context?
Time for a reapraisal for me I think
Best
Gene



Hi Gene,

Belt knives to be sure, and in the past 200+ years, they really haven't changed all that much IMO. Of course, as form follows function, I can understand why.

Truth be told, I'm unsure of the intended function such knives would have served on a ship. I would hazard to speculate that the utility mirrored the general utility of any pocket knife or belt knife on land, past or present. I think of more modern rigger's knives, with their marlin spike, and the accompanying blade that is smaller than this example...

Regarding it's exact function though, I honestly have no idea. My only experience sailing was as a kid, in my late grandfather's small sailboat around San Diego harbor... Maybe one of our more nautically-knowledgeable members an shed some light on this.

Regards,

Chris
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Old 4th October 2010, 07:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha
Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.

Regards,

Chris


Hi Chris ,
thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Yes, that makes it much older than I thought
It seems that my knife could exactly date to 1827 .....and there was me convincing myself that this was, perhaps, a surplus/copy F.S. blade hilted for the Scottish/hunting market ....still, in this instance ...its nice to be so wrong

Kind Regards David
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Old 4th October 2010, 09:17 PM   #16
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Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David
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Old 5th October 2010, 04:23 AM   #17
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Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...
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Old 12th October 2010, 02:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Carlos,
Thank you. I'm very pleased with it. I have a Large Albacete dagger of the single edged 'A' type.
Do you have a theory for the small size of this one?
Best
Gene



Hi Gene!1
I think the size of your knife is normal, 11 in is more or less the typical siza to this kind of knife. In this city made some miniatures of this knife, but in your case it isnīt.
best regards
carlos
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Old 12th October 2010, 05:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David



Thanks mate. I can't remember who has it, but one of the dealers I know has one for sure. I'll keep an eye open for it!
Best
Gene
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Old 12th October 2010, 05:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos
Hi Gene!1
I think the size of your knife is normal, 11 in is more or less the typical siza to this kind of knife. In this city made some miniatures of this knife, but in your case it isnīt.
best regards
carlos



Hi carlos,
I see. Thats even more of a burn that I got rid of the larger one I had.
You can see what I mean by small though? Its tiny compared with the type A that I've got:

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Old 12th October 2010, 05:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...


Well, now you mention it, I was watching some movie a while back and a spanish sailor/brigand/pirate had a big single edged knife rather like my one above.
Not that that is exactly 'proof' LOL! But it did get me thinking, and they would have made a good utility/weapon.
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Old 12th October 2010, 05:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi carlos,
I see. Thats even more of a burn that I got rid of the larger one I had.
You can see what I mean by small though? Its tiny compared with the type A that I've got:




I have 5 knives of type B and more or less this is the regular size. Your Knife of type A is very beautiful!! I saw one similar one year ago but escape me!!
Congratulations for this piece!!
Carlos
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Old 12th October 2010, 05:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos
I have 5 knives of type B and more or less this is the regular size. Your Knife of type A is very beautiful!! I saw one similar one year ago but escape me!!
Congratulations for this piece!!
Carlos


Thank you Carlos
Keep looking, you'll find one eventually.
I've been looking for a while now to get this type B.
Would you post a picture of your 5 examples? I'd very much like to see them.

Next I would like a lantern hilted one, pierced blade type B, or type A with 'offset hilt'.
They are beautiful!
Best
Gene
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Old 12th October 2010, 06:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Thank you Carlos
Keep looking, you'll find one eventually.
I've been looking for a while now to get this type B.
Would you post a picture of your 5 examples? I'd very much like to see them.

Next I would like a lantern hilted one, pierced blade type B, or type A with 'offset hilt'.
They are beautiful!
Best
Gene



Hello again!!
I just take a picture frommy collection of this type of knives. I hope you enjoy it.
best regards
carlos
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Old 12th October 2010, 06:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos
Hello again!!
I just take a picture frommy collection of this type of knives. I hope you enjoy it.
best regards
carlos


Fantastic collection Carlos!
What is the size range from smallest to largest?
I've heard that the pierced blades are for poison, do you think that is true?
What about age?
You have a great collection, something for me to aspire toward.
Thanks for sharing.
Best
Gene
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Old 12th October 2010, 07:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Fantastic collection Carlos!
What is the size range from smallest to largest?
I've heard that the pierced blades are for poison, do you think that is true?
What about age?
You have a great collection, something for me to aspire toward.
Thanks for sharing.
Best
Gene



Hello!
The bigger has 13 in and the smaller has 8.5 in. In Spain this type of knives are easy to find and not very expensive, 100 euros to up, the age are from end of XIX century.
I know a book, with more information about Albacete cutlery, " INTRODUCCION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE".
Best regards
carlos
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Old 12th October 2010, 07:26 PM   #27
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To place yarns while fixing boat sails.
BTW, this type of knife was brought to the Philippines by the Spanish, and it is still being made there, _exactly as it was during the 18-19th Cs._

From what I remember, it was also made in Spanish America, namely Mexico and Peru.



Best

M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Fantastic collection Carlos!
What is the size range from smallest to largest?
I've heard that the pierced blades are for poison, do you think that is true?
What about age?
You have a great collection, something for me to aspire toward.
Thanks for sharing.
Best
Gene

Last edited by celtan : 12th October 2010 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 13th October 2010, 04:12 AM   #28
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There's two at Victor Balaguer museum, near Barcelona (pics below).

I also two to three such daggers in Museo Oriental in Valladolid, Spain (grouped under the Philippine collection). Thanks.
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Old 13th October 2010, 01:19 PM   #29
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One of those puppies that is in my collection... I had also a tiny one, but I've sold it as it was very rusted.
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Old 14th October 2010, 07:44 PM   #30
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Carlos,
Thanks, I've seen the book, but it was a little expensive, and my Spanish is nearly nil!
I think if I lived in Spain I'd have a huge collection of these!

Manolo
Fixing sails? Thats interesting (although I liked the poison idea better!) What purpose would the brass sheet insert serve? How do you use it with yarn?

migueldiaz,
So those are in a Spanish Museum, but their origin is definately philippine?

Valjhun
Very nice example
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