Gaucho knife for ID please: Argentine 'La Movediza'

Atlantia · 2nd October 2010, 02:34 PM

Hi all,
Found this one today, have wanted a Gaucho knife for ages, not exactly waht I wanted, but seems a reasonable one.
Can anyone help with info or date?
I think its a 20th C one, but hopefully has some age.
Stamped:
'La Movediza' and 'Industria Argentina' on the blade.
And:
'Plate 800 Industria Argentina' on the scabbard.

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2010, 04:57 PM

Hi Atlantia,

I believe La Modediza to be one of the Tandil-based factories that has been producing factory cutlery since the mid-century. I would think yours dates from ca. 1950-1960. While not necessarily rare nor unusual, these provide a nice study of form of the ubiquitous knife type traditionally associated with the Gaucho culture (I have one myself from another Tandil manufacturer), and while not all that old are more collectible than contemporary examples to be sure.

Atlantia · 2nd October 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Atlantia,

I believe La Modediza to be one of the Tandil-based factories that has been producing factory cutlery since the mid-century. I would think yours dates from ca. 1950-1960. While not necessarily rare nor unusual, these provide a nice study of form of the ubiquitous knife type traditionally associated with the Gaucho culture (I have one myself from another Tandil manufacturer), and while not all that old are more collectible than contemporary examples to be sure.

Hi laEspadaAncha,

Thanks for the info, thats fine with me, I was kinda hoping it would be 1950s rather than any later.
One thing that confuses me (if you don't mind another question?)
The marking 'PLATE 800' I assumed meant plated with 800 grade silver, but a scrape of the inner scabbard edge shows no underlaying metal? It seems solid! Am I just not scraping hard enough?

Thanks again
Gene

Lee · 2nd October 2010, 05:48 PM

Plata is silver. Probably solid 80% silver with a little bit of gold overlay.

Atlantia · 2nd October 2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Plata is silver. Probably solid 80% silver with a little bit of gold overlay.

LOL

Oh yes, it is 'PLATA'
Thanks Lee

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2010, 05:58 PM

Hi Gene,

Are you sure it doesn't say, "Plata?" Plata is Spanish for silver, and would denote a lower-grade silver (80% vs. 92.5%).

I've done a little digging since my earlier post, and am under the impression La Movediza stopped manufacturing in 1963. In fact, below is a picture of all the original La Modeviza die stamps, now in the personal collection of the nephew of the founder of La Modeviza.

Your stamp looks like it could be the 3rd from the left on the bottom row (though it's hard to tell for sure given the small image size).

BTW, La Modeviza was the very first cutlery manufacturer established in Tandil. FWIW, Tandil (loosely speaking) is the Argentine-equivalent of Solingen, and it was in fact the WWII-era embargo of German exports that resulted in the formation of Industria Argentina's Tandil-based cutlery center.

Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2010, 06:00 PM

I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

Atlantia · 2nd October 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

Thak you so much!

This is just brilliant news all round. Not only is it as old as I dared hope (At least pre 1963) Also solid continental silver mounts, not silver 'plate' (DOH!) as I thought when I bought it!!
Brilliant!
Are those stamps in chronological order, by any chance?
If so, which end is earliest?

Best
Gene

Chris Evans · 3rd October 2010, 03:03 AM

Gene,

Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well.

Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/

The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007.

Cheers
Chris

Atlantia · 8th October 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Gene,

Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well.

Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/

The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,
So 'La Movediza' is a moving rock?
What is the article saying, the rock pivotted and moved, then eventually fell?

Best
Gene

Chris Evans · 10th October 2010, 12:08 AM

Hi Gene,

That 300 ton rock, a freak of nature, stood in a precarious state of equilibrium for a very long time, centuries, maybe even longer, until it lost whatever little support it relied upon and tumbled down the cliff. As to its name ` La Movediza' I am at a loss: In the local Araucan indian language, the word `Tandil' and the name of the town, refers to an unstable rock. When translated into Spanish probably Movediza was the best they could come up with, although it is unclear to me whether it ever trembled or gave any indication of movement. There is mention of an unconfirmed report that the terrible dictator, Juan Manuel Rosas, for reasons unknown, tried to knock the stone down but was unsuccessful, despite using a very large number of horses.

As an aside, Rosas who ruled with a very bloody hand, had strict regulations about knives and facons amongst his workers and even had himself flogged for wearing a knife due to a lapse of memory. His intention was to show that no one, not even himself was above the law. Rosas was an extraordinarily tough and ruthless warrior and reputedly the finest horseman in that part of the world. He gained great notoriety for his rule through terror and the use of death suqads. Nevertheless, he manage to create a basic Argentinean sense of identity, out of anarchy, and which later heads of state amplified to create a unified nation.

It is worth reading about his life and times to gain a broader understanding of 19th century Pampean life and the role of the knife.

Cheers
Chris

Ron Anderson · 10th October 2010, 12:54 AM

Hi Atlantia

I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

Chris Evans · 10th October 2010, 03:14 AM

Hi Ron,

The general practice in Argentina was, and remains for `plateros' (silversmiths) to manufacture furnishings with which they mount trade blades from various sources. Until the 2nd world war, blades were obtained from Europe, mostly from Germany and France. With the hostilities, the importation of blades largely, or entirely, ceased, and local manufacturers commenced turning out blades in the township of Tandil, some 200kms from the city of Buenos Aires. `La Movediza' was regarded as one of better know brands, though none of the locally made blades was as highly thought of as the famous imports.

So a Creole knife is a composite work of a single, or even a number of `plateros' and a blade manufacturer. As such ascribing a single identity to them is a dubious exercise. Often they wear the name of the retailer that sold it. With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades habe been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole.

Some time ago and in another thread, Gonzalo mentioned the currently reprehensible practice of cutting down old military bayonets, mounting them in rich furnishings and selling them as antique 'facones'.

Cheers
Chris

Ron Anderson · 13th October 2010, 01:04 AM

Thanks for that information, Chris.

When I get the chance I'll post pictures of my two 'gaucho' knives. Neither are anything special, I think. However, I'm sure you'll be able to give me some insight into them.

Regards
Ron

Chris Evans · 14th October 2010, 12:32 AM

Hi Ron,

Looking forward to your post.

Cheers
Chris

Atlantia · 14th October 2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Hi Atlantia

I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

Hi Ron,

I've noticed doing a bit of research, that there seem to be many similar knives with 'alpacca' mounts. Even identical movediza ones. I wonder if they are later, made with cheaper 'white copper' instead of Silver?

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 14th October 2010, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Ron,

The general practice in Argentina was, and remains for `plateros' (silversmiths) to manufacture furnishings with which they mount trade blades from various sources. Until the 2nd world war, blades were obtained from Europe, mostly from Germany and France. With the hostilities, the importation of blades largely, or entirely, ceased, and local manufacturers commenced turning out blades in the township of Tandil, some 200kms from the city of Buenos Aires. `La Movediza' was regarded as one of better know brands, though none of the locally made blades was as highly thought of as the famous imports.

So a Creole knife is a composite work of a single, or even a number of `plateros' and a blade manufacturer. As such ascribing a single identity to them is a dubious exercise. Often they wear the name of the retailer that sold it. With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades habe been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole.

Some time ago and in another thread, Gonzalo mentioned the currently reprehensible practice of cutting down old military bayonets, mounting them in rich furnishings and selling them as antique 'facones'.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,

What were these made for exactly? I take it they weren't really Gaucho knives by the 1940s, so who was buying them?

Best
Gene

Lee · 14th October 2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

What were these made for exactly? I take it they weren't really Gaucho knives by the 1940s, so who was buying them?

1. Check out the last paragraph of the first section and the last section in this essay by Abel A. Domenech.

2. Beyond that, for probably the same reasons there is a decent market for the works of modern custom knife makers (and swordsmiths). It is a heritage thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades have been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole.

The age of the 'piece as a whole' derives, in my opinion, from the date of the last major reworking. Hence, the takouba illustrated at the top of this page is, in fact, a modern takouba of the 21st century - despite it perhaps having the oldest blade of any takouba I have ever handled. Whenever an edged weapon form remains 'alive' within a culture, these regular refurbishments are likely to be going on, making the task of the collector a little more complex. And, as per Chris' observation, it is usually the best old blades that are first up for remounting and enhancement - though I rather doubt that great old period silver gaucho knife mounts would be lightly discarded at this point in time.

Chris Evans · 14th October 2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Ron,

I wonder if they are later, made with cheaper 'white copper' instead of Silver?

Absolutely. The introduction of Alpaca (nickel silver/German silver) rendered these ornate mounts affordable to the masses.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 15th October 2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Chris,

What were these made for exactly? I take it they weren't really Gaucho knives by the 1940s, so who was buying them?

Best
Gene

These knives are strictly speaking not `gaucho knives', rather `Creole knives'. This way we sidestep this extremely contentious question. Creoles (Span:Criollos) were the locally born offsprings of Europena settlers. Plenty of Crillos around to this day, but not gauchos. In reality, these knives are upholding a mythical pampean heritage and not utility, much like the ornate Colt single action became an American cultural icon of the West.

Much as I respect and esteem Doemench, in that essay, he claims that the "real" gauchos disappeared sometime around 1880, I and others disagree with this. The first thing to bear in mind is that throughout the 19th century the term gaucho kept changing. Originally, towards the late 18th cntry it was used as described by Domenech, nomadic outlaw vagabonds who lived off the fat of the land, but later it was applied to any agricultural labourer who could ride a horse, mere peons and station hands. What is very significant is that even in the 1790s their numbers were small, the Buenos Aires pampas only having a gaucho population of around 10,000 souls (if they had one! See Facundo Quiroga) and there weren't any in the other parts of the country because gauchos were plains dwellers. This number could only diminish, which it did with the emergence of institutionalized agriculture in the Pampas and an increase in indian population that competed for the same life sustaining resources. So, by the 1880s, if there were any left, they would have been very small in numbers and mostly bandits, fugitive station hands who committed a crime and army deserters. There is evidence to suggest that by the early decades of the 19th cntry, the numbers of wild cattle and horse were greatly reduced due to over exploitation. Because of this, it is my view and that of others, that the halcyon days of real gauchos was before the 19th cntry.

However the emergence of a national sense of identity in the later decades of the 19th cntry demanded a stereotype that everyone could identify with in an agricultural economy and the gaucho, as we know him, was invented. He was a composite character that embodied all the nation building virtues needed at that time. In time, `gaucho' was reduced to a wild card word that stood for many things, but always good, such as "gauchada" for a good deed and so on, even a trade brand, as in the 70's, if I remember right, "marca gaucha" stood for a good/reliable trade brand. This usage of the word stood in stark contrast to its earlier meanings, when it was used to describe good for nothings (see Facundo Quiroga).

Three very good works to read on the subject are: Sarmiento's Facundo Quiroga, Slattas The Gaucho and The Vanishing Frontier, and Lynch's Argentienan Caudillo (The Life of Juan Manuel Rosas Dictator). All these works are available in English.'

Cheers
Chris

laEspadaAncha · 16th October 2010, 06:31 AM

Hi Chris, Gene, et al,

Not to oversimplify, but I would consider them to be gaucho knives just as I would consider the plethora of knives we know as Bowie knives to be Bowie knives - similar in form and recognized as such based on both their design and heritage... Rezin and Jim Bowie have been dead for more than a century and a half, but Bowie knives are still made today.

Chris Evans · 16th October 2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Chris, Gene, et al,

Not to oversimplify, but I would consider them to be gaucho knives just as I would consider the plethora of knives we know as Bowie knives to be Bowie knives - similar in form and recognized as such based on both their design and heritage... Rezin and Jim Bowie have been dead for more than a century and a half, but Bowie knives are still made today.

Knowledgeable Argentines call this type of knife "Cuchillo Criollo" (Creole knife).

Cheers
Chris

2nd October 2010, 02:34 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Gaucho knife for ID please: Argentine 'La Movediza' Hi all, Found this one today, have wanted a Gaucho knife for ages, not exactly waht I wanted, but seems a reasonable one. Can anyone help with info or date? I think its a 20th C one, but hopefully has some age. Stamped: 'La Movediza' and 'Industria Argentina' on the blade. And: 'Plate 800 Industria Argentina' on the scabbard.

2nd October 2010, 04:57 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Atlantia, I believe La Modediza to be one of the Tandil-based factories that has been producing factory cutlery since the mid-century. I would think yours dates from ca. 1950-1960. While not necessarily rare nor unusual, these provide a nice study of form of the ubiquitous knife type traditionally associated with the Gaucho culture (I have one myself from another Tandil manufacturer), and while not all that old are more collectible than contemporary examples to be sure.

2nd October 2010, 05:48 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 888	Plata is silver. Probably solid 80% silver with a little bit of gold overlay.

2nd October 2010, 05:58 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Gene, Are you sure it doesn't say, "Plata?" Plata is Spanish for silver, and would denote a lower-grade silver (80% vs. 92.5%). I've done a little digging since my earlier post, and am under the impression La Movediza stopped manufacturing in 1963. In fact, below is a picture of all the original La Modeviza die stamps, now in the personal collection of the nephew of the founder of La Modeviza. Your stamp looks like it could be the 3rd from the left on the bottom row (though it's hard to tell for sure given the small image size). BTW, La Modeviza was the very first cutlery manufacturer established in Tandil. FWIW, Tandil (loosely speaking) is the Argentine-equivalent of Solingen, and it was in fact the WWII-era embargo of German exports that resulted in the formation of Industria Argentina's Tandil-based cutlery center. Regards, Chris

2nd October 2010, 06:00 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

3rd October 2010, 03:03 AM	#9
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Gene, Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well. Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/ The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007. Cheers Chris

10th October 2010, 12:08 AM	#11
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Hi Gene, That 300 ton rock, a freak of nature, stood in a precarious state of equilibrium for a very long time, centuries, maybe even longer, until it lost whatever little support it relied upon and tumbled down the cliff. As to its name ` La Movediza' I am at a loss: In the local Araucan indian language, the word `Tandil' and the name of the town, refers to an unstable rock. When translated into Spanish probably Movediza was the best they could come up with, although it is unclear to me whether it ever trembled or gave any indication of movement. There is mention of an unconfirmed report that the terrible dictator, Juan Manuel Rosas, for reasons unknown, tried to knock the stone down but was unsuccessful, despite using a very large number of horses. As an aside, Rosas who ruled with a very bloody hand, had strict regulations about knives and facons amongst his workers and even had himself flogged for wearing a knife due to a lapse of memory. His intention was to show that no one, not even himself was above the law. Rosas was an extraordinarily tough and ruthless warrior and reputedly the finest horseman in that part of the world. He gained great notoriety for his rule through terror and the use of death suqads. Nevertheless, he manage to create a basic Argentinean sense of identity, out of anarchy, and which later heads of state amplified to create a unified nation. It is worth reading about his life and times to gain a broader understanding of 19th century Pampean life and the role of the knife. Cheers Chris

10th October 2010, 12:54 AM	#12
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Atlantia I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

10th October 2010, 03:14 AM	#13
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Hi Ron, The general practice in Argentina was, and remains for `plateros' (silversmiths) to manufacture furnishings with which they mount trade blades from various sources. Until the 2nd world war, blades were obtained from Europe, mostly from Germany and France. With the hostilities, the importation of blades largely, or entirely, ceased, and local manufacturers commenced turning out blades in the township of Tandil, some 200kms from the city of Buenos Aires. `La Movediza' was regarded as one of better know brands, though none of the locally made blades was as highly thought of as the famous imports. So a Creole knife is a composite work of a single, or even a number of `plateros' and a blade manufacturer. As such ascribing a single identity to them is a dubious exercise. Often they wear the name of the retailer that sold it. With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades habe been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole. Some time ago and in another thread, Gonzalo mentioned the currently reprehensible practice of cutting down old military bayonets, mounting them in rich furnishings and selling them as antique 'facones'. Cheers Chris

13th October 2010, 01:04 AM	#14
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Thanks for that information, Chris. When I get the chance I'll post pictures of my two 'gaucho' knives. Neither are anything special, I think. However, I'm sure you'll be able to give me some insight into them. Regards Ron

14th October 2010, 12:32 AM	#15
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Hi Ron, Looking forward to your post. Cheers Chris

16th October 2010, 06:31 AM	#21
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Chris, Gene, et al, Not to oversimplify, but I would consider them to be gaucho knives just as I would consider the plethora of knives we know as Bowie knives to be Bowie knives - similar in form and recognized as such based on both their design and heritage... Rezin and Jim Bowie have been dead for more than a century and a half, but Bowie knives are still made today.