Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 20th April 2010, 11:58 PM   #1
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default Hello, my name is Emanuel and I am a flyssa addict

I'm done school so I figured I'd go out an get some flyssa.

The top one I got a while ago. It's in almost perfect condition, 36" blade. It seems to be the most refined of the three.

The middle one has an enormous 40" wide, much heavier blade, almost 1cm thick. The decoration appears to be somewhat cruder than the first. It lost the brass sheet decoration it once had on the hilt, evidenced by the tacks that are left in the handle. It's nice to see the actual construction of the hilt, the tang is very thin compared to the blade and bolster. Chregu showed a very similar flyssa recently, but his does not show any trace of tacks on the hilt and it may have never had brass decoration.

The bottom one is the crudest I find. Its decorative elements are larger and simpler. It still has brass on the hilt, but the panels are crudely decorated. What's also interesting is the proportion of the handles. The handle on this piece is smaller and more slender than on the other two, even though the blade is almost as heavy as the middle one and just over 39" long.

The width of the blade makes me wonder...perhaps the narrower blades are simply worn down from many sharpening and were once wider like the middle one.

Overall I'm very torn about what these three flyssa can tell us about time and manufacture. Are the differences indicative of different craftsmen, styles or decline over time? Camille Lacoste-Dujardin has conducted an artistic and thematic analysis of flyssa's decorative treatment, but her work Sabres Kabyles (1958) does not include photos of her sample, some of which are provenanced and dated.

Comments?
Emanuel
Attached Images
          
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 02:57 AM   #2
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

Emanuel

Very nice examples you have there I see we have the same love for these wonderful swords but please you need to stop standing in front of those antique sword shops staring aimlessly into the window til the wee hours of the morning.

Hello, my name is Lew and I am a flyssa addict also. You have all seen a pic of my pride and joy but alas the scabbard was lacking the proper brass band work it was being held together by leather string and bits of wire . I spoke with Battara at Timonium and gave him the scabbard so he could restore it to it's former glory. Here is a picture of the finished piece and it was beautifully done. Thanks Jose!
Attached Images
   

Last edited by LOUIEBLADES : 21st April 2010 at 03:18 AM.
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 04:12 AM   #3
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

That's a beauty Lew. It's those exact same pics of your flyssa that made me fall in love with it.
I've been working on carving a scabbard for a small flyssa for a while now. As soon as it's complete I'll try my hand at bigger scabbards.

Incidentally, I'm reading a book on "Grande Kabylie" from 1847, and there's a mention that the Ifflissen produced the flyssa with local iron and "steel brought from the Orient". There are no additional notes and no way to determine what "the Orient" means, but this brings to mind some flyssa I've seen with visibly laminated blades. At the same time, Lacoste-Dujardin indicated that flyssa blades were usually iron, rarely steel. This might be an error on her part, and it might also suggest that the laminated blades were made from imported pattern-welded Turkish, Persian or Indian billets via the Ottoman ports.

Just a thought...
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 04:46 AM   #4
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Just bought another one from the bay...somewhat shorter, 32" blade, but looks like the more refined type...
...
...
I tried to look away and let it go...but I couldn't...
...
..
..
Yes...I'm a sick man
Attached Images
 
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 07:43 AM   #5
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default The black couch.

Gentlemen!!!

It appears you have both found comfort in each other knowing you are not alone in your addictions , great to see such a support network for troubled Flyssa addicts.
I know I am really going to enjoy watching you both talk your way through your troubles....I'd join you but I have enough troubles of my own

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 02:05 PM   #6
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,240
Default

You have issues to work on.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 05:01 PM   #7
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,687
Default

Who doesn't?

(especially flyssa freaks )

Last edited by Battara : 21st April 2010 at 05:48 PM.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 06:56 PM   #8
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,527
Cool

Isn't that why we're all gathered here ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 07:28 PM   #9
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,687
Default

Oh.....yeah......right........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2010, 05:42 PM   #10
ericlaude
Member
 
ericlaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 187
Default look at this form of flyssa

Hi the flissa addict, what do you think about this curved long flyssa ( 34") with a big handle (1,2" diam).
Attached Images
      
ericlaude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2010, 08:05 PM   #11
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

Sweeet! Could be the forerunner of the modern wedding nimcha?
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2010, 10:12 PM   #12
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Love the blade! The handle and guard are indeed quite like the wedding nimcha.

We've seen examples of curved blades before - I freaked out

I just received flyssa #4. I'll post pics soon.
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2010, 10:41 PM   #13
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,465
Default

while my addiction is not as great as yours, i still love my smaller flyssas.
nice to see another curved one...

mine:
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2010, 11:25 PM   #14
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,687
Default

First it was the dha freaks and now the flyssa freaks!!! !!!!( ).

But seriously folks nice blade work on the flyssas and nice carvings on the scabbards. So much variety.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2010, 06:50 PM   #15
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

I...er...got another one...

Here's #5, 41" (104cm) blade, 46" (117cm) overall.
Beefy handle like the first one in the pic in the first post, with a bit of variation to the scroll-work.

I'll soon have the pics of the flyssa in Madrid's Real Armeria, dated 1827, for comparison.

Emanuel
Attached Images
      
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2010, 03:37 AM   #16
Nathaniel
Member
 
Nathaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 847
Default

"Hello, my name is Emanuel and I am a flyssa addict"

And the rehab group answers: "Hi Emanuel"

Geez...LOL, so we are in a circle introducing ourselves and stating our addiction/affection huh?

Love the title, Emanuel

Thanks for sharing the interesting Flyssa Careful...it might prove to be contagious addiction!

Amazed at the long blades and just a one hand grip. Wicked thrusting point, and belly at towards the end to help accelerate the mass with slashing.

And Battara, who you calling a Dha Freak!?!?!?

Okay ...I confess as well....if I don't get my daily dha fix...ie at least look at my bladed beauties, I get a little "Edgy" Ohhhh...that was a bad one

Good thing too with my new job is I get home before the wife...so I can put any new acquisitions in "protective custody"
Nathaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2010, 06:21 AM   #17
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel

Here's #5, 41" (104cm) blade, 46" (117cm) overall.

Emanuel


HOLY SMOKES Emanuel, congrats, what a beauty!!! I would never have known...does it have a practical feel or do you think it is like some Navaja, made to display the masters ability in manufacture or processional in nature like some of the oversized swords seen in the hands of entourage in SEA.

Gav

Last edited by freebooter : 12th September 2010 at 07:02 AM.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2010, 06:42 AM   #18
Nathaniel
Member
 
Nathaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
HOLY SMOKES Emanuel, confrats, what a beauty!!! I would never have known...does it have a practical feel or do you think it is like some Navaja, made to display the masters ability in manufacture or processional in nature like some of the oversized swords seen in the hands of entourage in SEA.

Gav



Emanuel, Don't talk to this Gavin guy...like a drug dealer, he will try to tempt you with beautiful sharp pointy things.

But, I guess the same could be said for all of us...tempting and suporting each other all along the way Hahaha Cheers to EAAF!
Nathaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2010, 01:02 PM   #19
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaniel
Emanuel, Don't talk to this Gavin guy...like a drug dealer, he will try to tempt you with beautiful sharp pointy things.

But, I guess the same could be said for all of us...tempting and suporting each other all along the way Hahaha Cheers to EAAF!


Cheeky , I'm just an addict like you mate I deal to help others with their wants...or is that needs and it also helps me procure items for my habits...you only have to see what you have done to me with Dha, ruined I say ruined....you should never had said find Dha....I'll be in and out of rehab for years now.

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2010, 04:14 PM   #20
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Haha no worries guys, I got addicted the moment I stumbled onto this forum five years ago. And like Lew said, I absolutely fell in love with the flyssa. It's been downhill since
Nathaniel, I really wouldn't mind dabling in dhas. I've got three so far and expect I'll snatch many more before all this is over. I'm 28 and got a ways to go I figure :Wink:

Gavin, these very long blades are all very top-heavy. I can see the flyssa used in estoc in a cavalry charge and thrust, but the top weight of these blades requires some powerful arms to hold straight for any period of time. Insofar as their use for slashing goes, I haven't handled too many sabres and I'm not sure how they compare. The length feels a bit awkward...in contrast my Indian tulwars are very well balanced. Thie new monster I got has no balance whatsoever, the hilt is way too light.

The problem is we have no real source on how these were used. I've poured over lots of old French accounts from the 1830s onwards but none of them actually study the way Kabyles faught. One general suggests that these were used by cavalry and infantry alike, the latter using the wide belly of the blade to good effect when decapitating prisoners. A short cleaver type blade would be much better for decapitation though
Now if Kabyles faught on camel-back then the length of the flyssa would have considerable advantage, allowing riders to reach infantry below them. Unfortunately I don't think this is the case, especially since Kabylia is hilly and mountainous country.

On the ceremonial/presentation thought Gavin, I don't think it's the case with Kabyles. Unlike SEA kingdoms and polities, the Kabyles formed a fairly loose confederation of tribes and clans, each with their own elders. My understanding is that they were more practical and less formal, so the production of bearing swords or advertizing specimens is unlikely I think. The Iflissen tribe was already established as the armourer of the Kabyles, producing knives, swords and even guns. One venue for resolving this question is finding out the circumstances in which the French "captured" a flyssa in the Kabyle rebellion of 1871. That sword is at the Invalides in Paris and it's on my list to see next time I'm there. I hope there is some comment on whether this flyssa was taken during combat from a fighter or just removed from non-combating leaders/elders.

I'll post some more pics later of all 5 together. My only hope is that I don't find another flyssa for sale somewhere before my next pay-check

Cheers,
E
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2010, 12:37 AM   #21
Nathaniel
Member
 
Nathaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Cheeky , I'm just an addict like you mate I deal to help others with their wants...or is that needs and it also helps me procure items for my habits...you only have to see what you have done to me with Dha, ruined I say ruined....you should never had said find Dha....I'll be in and out of rehab for years now.

Gav


LOL, boy it's getting thick in here Ah, Gav, I'll be more than happy to hold on to your dha to help you kick the habit In no time you will not even miss them Plenty of other fish in the sea you can fillet with other ethnic cutlery

Last edited by Nathaniel : 13th September 2010 at 01:01 AM.
Nathaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2010, 12:53 AM   #22
Nathaniel
Member
 
Nathaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 847
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
Haha no worries guys, I got addicted the moment I stumbled onto this forum five years ago. And like Lew said, I absolutely fell in love with the flyssa. It's been downhill since

Nathaniel, I really wouldn't mind dabling in dhas. I've got three so far and expect I'll snatch many more before all this is over. I'm 28 and got a ways to go I figure :Wink:


Sounds like my story too...close in age too...one of the best things getting done with grad school was 1. not having to study in the evenings & 2. Finally making some real money to be able to afford the cool toys...granted it's been a evolution...from modern reproductions ...but the quality was just not as good compared to real deal.

Dablings in dhas? nahhhh...just sell them to me to fund some more Flyssa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
Gavin, these very long blades are all very top-heavy. I can see the flyssa used in estoc in a cavalry charge and thrust, but the top weight of these blades requires some powerful arms to hold straight for any period of time. Insofar as their use for slashing goes, I haven't handled too many sabres and I'm not sure how they compare. The length feels a bit awkward...in contrast my Indian tulwars are very well balanced. Thie new monster I got has no balance whatsoever, the hilt is way too light.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaniel
Similar to my thoughts: "Amazed at the long blades and just a one hand grip. Wicked thrusting point, and belly at towards the end to help accelerate the mass with slashing."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
The problem is we have no real source on how these were used. I've poured over lots of old French accounts from the 1830s onwards but none of them actually study the way Kabyles faught. One general suggests that these were used by cavalry and infantry alike, the latter using the wide belly of the blade to good effect when decapitating prisoners. A short cleaver type blade would be much better for decapitation though
Now if Kabyles faught on camel-back then the length of the flyssa would have considerable advantage, allowing riders to reach infantry below them. Unfortunately I don't think this is the case, especially since Kabylia is hilly and mountainous country.

On the ceremonial/presentation thought Gavin, I don't think it's the case with Kabyles. Unlike SEA kingdoms and polities, the Kabyles formed a fairly loose confederation of tribes and clans, each with their own elders. My understanding is that they were more practical and less formal, so the production of bearing swords or advertizing specimens is unlikely I think. The Iflissen tribe was already established as the armourer of the Kabyles, producing knives, swords and even guns. One venue for resolving this question is finding out the circumstances in which the French "captured" a flyssa in the Kabyle rebellion of 1871. That sword is at the Invalides in Paris and it's on my list to see next time I'm there. I hope there is some comment on whether this flyssa was taken during combat from a fighter or just removed from non-combating leaders/elders.


Glad to see you are also taking to the researching as well...my interest as well...it would be interesting too to hear some thoughts from other 'Flyssa Freaks' in regards to these questions

Until then we'll all look forward to further Flyssa, dha or new a bladed vices Emanuel

Last edited by Nathaniel : 13th September 2010 at 01:04 AM.
Nathaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:14 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.