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Old 6th May 2010, 04:54 PM   #31
Sajen
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The blade is cleaned now and I have completed the keris again with an auxiliary-pendokok. Here the pictures.
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Old 6th May 2010, 05:30 PM   #32
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Nice job Sajen.
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Old 6th May 2010, 05:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Nice job Sajen.


Thank you David. I am very very happy with this keris and still can't believe how much luck I have had to get it. And I am thankful for all the good restore tips I have got.

Last edited by Sajen : 6th May 2010 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 6th May 2010, 08:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
The blade is cleaned now and I have completed the keris again with an auxiliary-pendokok. Here the pictures.


HI Sajen,

Let me first say I really see you did it skillfull and seemly with pleasure.

The makeover however of the scabbard in special is something I really don't unterstand,what I should like ( but I'm not a keris collector!!) is just that enormous old patina on the scabbard !

Arjan
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Old 7th May 2010, 10:06 AM   #35
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Arjan, I believe it was the dirt that Detlef has removed And all the real patina is still there

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Old 7th May 2010, 10:28 AM   #36
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Tatyana is correct Arjan.

Patina on wood is defined as a shine or gloss that is produced by polishing over an extended period of time.

Dirt does not equal patina.

Once the dirt has been removed, then the true patina can be seen.
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Old 7th May 2010, 12:24 PM   #37
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Patina is not very easy to define.

In some circles patina is seen as a (green) discoloration of metal, either caused by time, or by chemicals.

In ethnographic collecting patina is seen as all changes that come to an object during its life time. This also includes dirt.

For example, I can not imagine that you would take an old fetish statue from Congo and decide to gently remove the dirt in order to reveal its true patina

In this case my choice would have been to leave the dirt or at least some of it.
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Old 7th May 2010, 01:17 PM   #38
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We all have our own preferences, true, but words do have a definite meaning, and that meaning is set down in dictionaries.

The original use of the word patina applied only to bronze, and described the usually green incrustation that old bronze can achieve, however as time passed this use was extended to other materials, in respect of patina as it applies to wood, the meaning is pretty much as I gave it:-

the gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing (Oxford).

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750.

However, dirt is something different to patina:- dirt hides patina, it does not enhance it.

If we like dirt on something as evidence of its age, that is a personal preference, and I would never speak against personal preferences.

But dirt is not patina.

In respect of keris, we are dealing with an iconic cultural object.

It is in fact disrespectful to the spirit and inherited presence of a keris to leave it accomodated in dirty or inferior dress.

If we choose to retain the old dress that it is in when we acquire it, that old dress should be put into as good condition as is possible, out of respect for the keris. However, if the old dress has already deteriorated beyond a restorable state, then we should provide the keris with new clothes.

In my opinion Detlef has acted in exactly the right manner where the keris under discussion is concerned:- he has paid respect to the keris and he has sympathetically restored and cleaned the existing dress, which will ensure that it is preserved for the future.
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Old 7th May 2010, 01:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
We all have our own preferences, true, but words do have a definite meaning, and that meaning is set down in dictionaries.

The original use of the word patina applied only to bronze, and described the usually green incrustation that old bronze can achieve, however as time passed this use was extended to other materials, in respect of patina as it applies to wood, the meaning is pretty much as I gave it:-

the gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing (Oxford).

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750.

However, dirt is something different to patina:- dirt hides patina, it does not enhance it.

If we like dirt on something as evidence of its age, that is a personal preference, and I would never speak against personal preferences.

But dirt is not patina.

In respect of keris, we are dealing with an iconic cultural object.

It is in fact disrespectful to the spirit and inherited presence of a keris to leave it accomodated in dirty or inferior dress.

If we choose to retain the old dress that it is in when we acquire it, that old dress should be put into as good condition as is possible, out of respect for the keris. However, if the old dress has already deteriorated beyond a restorable state, then we should provide the keris with new clothes.

In my opinion Detlef has acted in exactly the right manner where the keris under discussion is concerned:- he has paid respect to the keris and he has sympathetically restored and cleaned the existing dress, which will ensure that it is preserved for the future.



Indeed in the case if it was only to remove dirt steel wool shouldn't be nessesary to get " a quicker result". Steel wool removes also surface scratches and more of the original patina than you want ( or not).
Patience is always the best in doing restorework course its mostly not reversable.

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750


Please don't compare ethnographic object with furniture !!!

The presence of patina on an ethnographic objects makes a big part of the prize. Any change/remove/cleaning of the object's patina will certainly lowere the value.

I am not enough into kerisses and haven't seen Sajens objects in real ( always difficult too see patina on pics only) to say what was the best in this case. All I know if that I have sold some Tajons in the past and I am sure that the clients who bought them ( but they are art collectors) whould not be interested if I should have polished them up with steel wool.
Gladly there are also keris collectors who doesn't mind.
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Old 7th May 2010, 01:50 PM   #40
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One of the tricks of the trade in the furniture restoration business is to moisten a small pad of cloth with gum turpentine and using car polish you polish off the filth on old french polished, shellaced or varnished surfaces.

You can get a quicker result if you use 0000 steel wool , and also if you use a clean and polish paste rather than just a polish paste, but you then run the risk of going through the finish


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandaukudi
Indeed in the case if it was only to remove dirt steel wool shouldn't be nessesary to get " a quicker result". Steel wool removes also surface scratches and more of the original patina than you want ( or not).
Patience is always the best in doing restorework course its mostly not reversable.

Please don't compare ethnographic object with furniture !!!

The presence of patina on an ethnographic objects makes a big part of the prize. Any change/remove/cleaning of the object's patina will certainly lowere the value.

I am not enough into kerisses and haven't seen Sajens object in real ( always difficult too see patina on pics only) to say what was the best in this case. All I know if that I have sold some Tajons in the past and I am sure that the clients who bought them ( but they are art collectors) whould not be interested if I should have polished them up with steel wool.
Gladly there are also keris collectors who doesn't mind.
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Old 7th May 2010, 02:37 PM   #41
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Arjan, #0000 steel wool will not scratch the surface very easily. It is a very, very fine steel wool. I have often used it on wood to revive patina hiden behind dirt.
As a collector of keris, which is most definitely an ethnographic item, i would definitely agree with most here that dirt on a keris is not considered patina. Exactly because of the ethnographic nature of the keris it is considered, as Alan has already stated, rather disrespectful to leave the dress in such a state. Cleaning it or replacing it is the culturally accepted and expected thing to do. From the collectors stand point outside of the culture i prefer to maintain the original dress whenever possible as opposed to replacing it. But i would never leave dirt on it for any ethnographic reasons. Now i do understand your reasoning in regards to something like an African fetish. But just as you are shocked by the thought of comparing ethnographic objects with furniture i must point out that you also cannot compare the African fetish to a keris. They are apples and oranges in the ethnographic collecting world. Of course you wouldn't clean the gunk off a fetish. You would no doubt be cleaning off layers of offerings that have been fed to it in the past, a big a part of it's history as an ethnographic item. This is not the case, however, with the keris. No self-respecting Indonesian would keep his keris in such a condition and as a collector trying to understand and respect the culture of the item i am collection i choose to follow in that tradition of care and maintenance.
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Old 7th May 2010, 03:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Arjan, #0000 steel wool will not scratch the surface very easily. It is a very, very fine steel wool. I have often used it on wood to revive patina hiden behind dirt.
As a collector of keris, which is most definitely an ethnographic item, i would definitely agree with most here that dirt on a keris is not considered patina. Exactly because of the ethnographic nature of the keris it is considered, as Alan has already stated, rather disrespectful to leave the dress in such a state. Cleaning it or replacing it is the culturally accepted and expected thing to do. From the collectors stand point outside of the culture i prefer to maintain the original dress whenever possible as opposed to replacing it. But i would never leave dirt on it for any ethnographic reasons. Now i do understand your reasoning in regards to something like an African fetish. But just as you are shocked by the thought of comparing ethnographic objects with furniture i must point out that you also cannot compare the African fetish to a keris. They are apples and oranges in the ethnographic collecting world. Of course you wouldn't clean the gunk off a fetish. You would no doubt be cleaning off layers of offerings that have been fed to it in the past, a big a part of it's history as an ethnographic item. This is not the case, however, with the keris. No self-respecting Indonesian would keep his keris in such a condition and as a collector trying to understand and respect the culture of the item i am collection i choose to follow in that tradition of care and maintenance.


Hi David,

thanks for your explanation, I see why I don't collect them.

I also see there are two groups that collect kerisses, the first who are the fanatic real keris lovers and are honering them as weapons.

The second group collect them as art object and don't want to change anything.

I'm in between somewhere I think but should rather buy from the second group.
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Old 7th May 2010, 03:40 PM   #43
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Great job Detlef!

Now the keris looks the way it is meant to be. A dark (aggressive) old hilt, sheath with warm and glowing red finish. You now have a good old tajong in desirable condition. Welcome to the club, Detlef!
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Old 7th May 2010, 06:08 PM   #44
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Hello Arjan and Willem,

I can understand your point of view very well since I collect also artefacts from "primitive" cultures and I have a feeling for "dirt" patina. But here we at the point: keris, special from Java and Peninsula are not "primitive" artefacts; this are cultural art objects. The wood of keris sheats is most of the time from wood with a beautiful grain and it would be a shame when it isn't possible to see it under all this "dirt-patina" and I agree with the others that you can't polish away the real wood patina. I haven't polished the sheat with steel-wool; only like Alan propound with cloth and car polish and then I have oiled the sheat with wood oil. And when you hold the keris in your hands you still can see the age of this piece and it have a very nice wood patina.

What you will do when you have a old Mandau sheat and the very fine rattan bindings are not to seen under a big coat from "dirt-patina"?

But sometimes I have a keris with both sort of patina and I conclude that I only polish the sheat a little bit and let it in this state, see the pictures. Or I only polish the front side of the sheat and let the back in "original" state.

Best regards,

Detlef
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Old 7th May 2010, 06:10 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova
Arjan, I believe it was the dirt that Detlef has removed And all the real patina is still there


Thank's Tatyana, it is like you write!
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Old 7th May 2010, 06:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Tatyana is correct Arjan.

Patina on wood is defined as a shine or gloss that is produced by polishing over an extended period of time.

Dirt does not equal patina.

Once the dirt has been removed, then the true patina can be seen.


Agree complete, I have had cleaned keris handle with water and a mild soap and when it was oiled again the real patina was still visible.
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Old 7th May 2010, 06:15 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
Great job Detlef!

Now the keris looks the way it is meant to be. A dark (aggressive) old hilt, sheath with warm and glowing red finish. You now have a good old tajong in desirable condition. Welcome to the club, Detlef!


Thank you Kai Wee!!
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:41 PM   #48
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Arjan, as I have already said, I have no desire to argue against personal preference, if your personal preference is for dirt, then I support without question your right to wallow in dirt.

I would also comment that I did not compare ethnographic objects with furniture, however, had I done so, this would have been a very valid comparison, as furniture is one of the defining items of any culture, and ethnography is not limited to the primitive.

My mention of furniture was to demonstrate the correct usage of the word "patina", I was not in any way drawing a comparison between furniture and anything else.

In respect of the use of steel wool.

I think David has probably corrected your misunderstanding here, but I will comment further. 0000 steel wool is a very fine grade of wool, it has very little cut, and it is quite safe for an experienced person to use on most surfaces. For example, the finish of a quality piano could have 32 or more layers of polish, if that piano has not been well maintained some of that finish might be cracked, but often those cracks do not extend all the way through the finish, so it becomes necessary to remove a little of the outside polish. This is not a job for an inexperienced person, but a craftsman undertaking such a restoration would use 0000 steel wool in preference to a cloth rubber, simply because of economics of time. Once the necessary cut has been achieved the final polish would be with a different medium. Please note here that I am talking about very much finer work than is ever necessary with the polished wooden surfaces of weapon scabbards.

0000 steel wool does produce a faster result when it is necessary to cut back a surface, and there are other agents that are used by craftsmen that also have an abrasive effect, such as pumice, rottenstone, even toothpaste and talcum powder, but a degree of experience with these materials is necessary before they can be used safely and to maximum effect. The advice I gave to Detlef is the product of my own 50 odd years involved in the restoration and finishing of wooden surfaces, and the foundations for that experience came from 3 generations of cabinet makers.

People who collect keris do so for a number of reasons, it is not just as "keris lovers", nor as people who regard the keris as an art object. However, of those who do regard the keris as an art object, it seems that the vast bulk of these people want their art objects in absolutely immaculate condition. Where they acquire a very good keris that is in very poor condition, invariably that keris will be restored, it will never be left in a deteriorated condition and with an uncleaned and unstained blade.

Arjan, I respect your personal standards and personal preferences, and I would never argue against your right to hold these standards and preferences, but your position is very much at variance with the ethic of keris culture.
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Old 8th May 2010, 02:53 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
... position is very much at variance with the ethic of keris culture.


Spot on, Alan! Culture - a particular way of doing things or kind of actions adopted by a group of people that bind them together.

Arjan - we are not making an attack on you, just sharing what we normally do in keris collecting circles.
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Old 8th May 2010, 03:45 PM   #50
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Arjan - we are not making an attack on you, just sharing what we normally do in keris collecting circles. [/QUOTE]

Oh , don't worry I didn't felt like an attack, I just like the converstation!

I was just a little concerned,that's all....
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Old 1st December 2019, 03:44 PM   #51
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Two afternoons ago, as I was curled up under my blanket in a foetal position, I decided that if I ever took up the activity commonly referred to as "tagging", (not exactly the same as "graffiti", but close enough), the first thing I'd write/spraypaint on the highway overpass would be "Non-gender-specific third person singular English pronoun NOW". Your upper left photo posted at 04:54 leaves me as firmly convinced as I was three days ago that I'd be morally right in spraypainting that phrase anywhere, not just on a highway overpass. The first language I learned doesn't have this pronoun problem. Although I don't know for certain, and I may be wrong, the hilt figure "looks masculine", and I have to say "he" looks very, very happy now, compared to before. "He" looks nothing less than restored to life. "He" was really, truly deserving of the effort you put forth, and I'm pleased to the point of tears to see that you did right by "him". I thank you, on "his" behalf, and on behalf of those who were before and those who will come after myself.
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Old 1st December 2019, 11:49 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn
Although I don't know for certain, and I may be wrong, the hilt figure "looks masculine", and I have to say "he" looks very, very happy now, compared to before. "He" looks nothing less than restored to life. "He" was really, truly deserving of the effort you put forth, and I'm pleased to the point of tears to see that you did right by "him". I thank you, on "his" behalf, and on behalf of those who were before and those who will come after myself.



Thank you very much for your kind words!

Regards,
Detlef
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