Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th November 2009, 12:24 AM   #1
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default Gilded and painted Keris for viewing

I have had this piece sitting aside for some time now and it has sparked a lot of interest with fellow collectors I speak to externally from the forum so I thought others would also like to view it.
Although my knowledge is very limited in comparrision to the knowledge base here, I know what I like and painted scabbard Keris are something I have always found very appealling and will continue to put these painted examples aside in my collections.
Here is an example I favour very much, the scabbard is gilded and painted, the blade is unusual in form and the pamor is what I beleive to be expertly controlled.
Comments and input is most welcome.

Gav
Attached Images
    
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 12:31 AM   #2
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,821
Smile

Hey Gav,
How about a full picture of the blade .

The painting ... nice .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 12:48 AM   #3
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default Full blade.

Rick, Full blade image, though it doesn't quite show the pamor following the edge in layers all the way to the tip....

Gav
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 12:59 AM   #4
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

Nice.

These Bali sunggingan are really pretty scarce.

I mean really scarce.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 01:08 AM   #5
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Nice.

These Bali sunggingan are really pretty scarce.

I mean really scarce.


Wow, thank you Alan, I knew it was a good thing when I found it but hearing that makes it ace! They are beautiful.

Do you think in a previous life the hilt would have been painted/gilded? Or is it more typical to have them left as it currently sits?

Best regards

Gav.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 02:01 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

In the Balinese ones I've seen the hilt seems to bear no relationship at all to the wrongko.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 11:08 PM   #7
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default The blade

Gents,

Another aspect that drew me to this piece was the blades quality.

I know there are many different representation of style in this area of the blade but this shape is new to my eyes. An almost human like shape to one side and flames rising on the other?

Not being very savy with keris terms, does the unusual form of the blade at the forte inticate anything in particular such as region in Bali, age of the blade or status of the owner?

Best regards

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2009, 11:58 PM   #8
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,821
Default

Agree, the pecetan (Jawa term) seems to be executed a bit differently .
The luks seem a little strange .

Otherwise, are you referring to the pamor ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 12:23 AM   #9
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default The blade;

Rick,

In general just the first four inches from the hilt as a whole I find interesting and unusual, the "fullers" the shapes, dips and curves.

I think for me, differentiating pamor or the subtle luks is beyond my understandings to be able to grasp fully, but I am willing to listen if the information can be offered as it would be interesting to know and it would offer points of reference for my own readings when time permits. Others might also want to know these technical aspects of this piece

Best

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 12:33 AM   #10
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,060
Default

It's certainly a nice blade, but i don't find the fullers all that unusual for a Bali blade.
I also have a old Bali sunggingan that i will post in the next day or so. Interestingly mine does have a hilt which has also been painted in relation to the sheath.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 12:54 AM   #11
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default Nice to see another

Great David,

I look forward to viewing it.

I agree Bali Keris do have fullers similar to this and in these positions but there are subtle differences in the flow and depth of the curves that my eyes are drawn too. It may be nothing but I thought to ask. I'll try to get some comparative images of the other Bali keris blade I have here to see if I can highlight it better. It may just be a case of the pamor on this piece making it look different.

Regards

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 01:35 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

I can see nothing unusual at all in this blade.

The garap is fair average quality for a Bali blade of this vintage. There are minor artistic shortcomings that really do not bear mention, and can simply be written off as the maker's style.

To my eyes its just a pretty usual sort of old Bali blade.

What makes the whole thing nice is the old blade + old sunggingan in pretty good condition + the sunggingan is well preserved + the blade has what appears to be a nice old stain + the hilt is not bad either. As a total package its pretty nice and very scarce.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 01:45 AM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,060
Default

OK, i did manage to find a couple of photos that i already took of this sheath. I will have to take some more to show the whole sheath and the whole hilt. You can see the the hilt has some of the same red paint as the sheath. The pommel is similarly painted. Not in as good condition as Gav's but i think this one might be just a bit older.
Attached Images
  
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 04:22 AM   #14
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

Yep. Nice too.

Any of these old Bali sunggingans are very, very collectable.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 05:07 AM   #15
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default Another painted scabbard and hilt

Another I secured recently, still to be posted to me, new or old I couldn't say but the wear looked honest enough without going into too much detail.

I'll submit more images when it arrives.

Thanks for posting the images David, I really enjoy looking at these pieces something the eyes can enjoy all day.


All the best Gav

PS guys, if you got em show them I would love to see more diverstity in painting or gilding.
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 05:08 AM   #16
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 831
Default

all very nice

Last edited by Marcokeris : 19th November 2009 at 11:38 AM.
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 08:13 AM   #17
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,635
Default

Thanks for sharing.
Here is another, more simple, one as a reference.

Michael
Attached Images
  
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 11:35 AM   #18
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 831
Default

Very hard in Bali to find, in my experience, so nice dress.
(price ...are really very high )
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 03:01 PM   #19
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
Very hard in Bali to find, in my experience, so nice dress.
(price ...are really very high )



This I can confirm! All four are very nice!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2009, 04:43 PM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,060
Default

Can anyone speak to the place of these painted sheaths culturally? Where these reserved for specific societal stations or could anyone own one?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2009, 01:37 AM   #21
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

We're looking at Bali keris here, I cannot answer this question. However, for Javanese keris, although some particular person, such as cantung balung, or an actor, may wear a sunggingan keris, nobles also wear them on some occasions, the colour of the sunggingan work and pendok being designated to the rank of the wearer.

I've got a pretty fair small collection of quality sunggingan keris, I'm a bit busy right now, but as soon as I get a chance I'll make some pics available
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2009, 04:47 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Can anyone speak to the place of these painted sheaths culturally? Where these reserved for specific societal stations or could anyone own one?


1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married.

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2009, 11:03 PM   #23
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

In Bali marriage keris are usually the most flamboyant that one can afford. I know one Bali bloke who virtually mortgaged his house to put together a glorious keris for his marriage. Gold, emeralds, rubies --- chocolate layer cake with cream and cherries. After his marriage it took him several years to sell it at a loss. It was offered to me, but I could not afford it.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2009, 11:21 AM   #24
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default Another for viewing

Another Bali Sunggingan


A better group of images of the one above.

I will enjoy viewing more diversity in these pieces when you get to yours Alan.


Enjoy.

Gav
Attached Images
        
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2009, 08:42 PM   #25
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

This is nice art work, but I most sincerely doubt that this type of Balinese sunggingan work is traditional. It is the most popular style for newly done sungging work that is specifically offered to collectors. I have never seen an old sunggingan scabbard with this style of decoration --- or more correctly, I have never seen old sunggingan work of this style.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2009, 10:27 PM   #26
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
This is nice art work, but I most sincerely doubt that this type of Balinese sunggingan work is traditional. It is the most popular style for newly done sungging work that is specifically offered to collectors. I have never seen an old sunggingan scabbard with this style of decoration --- or more correctly, I have never seen old sunggingan work of this style.


I would agree this is 20th century work Alan, the presence of a whitish undercoat exposed where some old paint has fallen away, this is what would make me think the same. There is a small sticker to the blade that reads "Antique Blade, hand painted Bali keris".
Needless to say, as you note the art work is nice. it is very detailed and attractive to the eye, well my eye.
Any direction with the blade, it does appear to have nice age to it.

Best

Gavin
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2009, 12:41 AM   #27
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

Yes, the keris is old, and very probably the scabbard, but I'd guess the sunggingan work as 1970's.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2009, 05:47 AM   #28
Kiai Carita
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Yes, the keris is old, and very probably the scabbard, but I'd guess the sunggingan work as 1970's.


If you examine closely is it watercolour and ink covered by a spray varnish? This method of sungging began to become common in the 1980s.
Kiai Carita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2009, 07:36 AM   #29
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,521
Default

You're better than me Kiai, I can't tell what materials have been used for the sungging work from a photo, but wouldn't argue about the time frame, 1980's is near enough to 1970's in my book. The point is this:- its not old paint work.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2009, 08:30 AM   #30
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiai Carita
If you examine closely is it watercolour and ink covered by a spray varnish? This method of sungging began to become common in the 1980s.


Interesting and quite possible, varnish or lacquer would explain the way in which the paint has flaked and appears rippled in a few small patches.
Being a very time intensive task to create what they have, I'd be interested in seeing or learning more about the processes involved in decorating these sheaths either new or old now I have presented both.

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:56 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.