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Old 25th October 2009, 10:16 PM   #1
fernando
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Default A little pistol for comments

A little (pocket?) pistol with 19 cms (7 1/2") total length.
Patilha (Miquelete) lock.
Barrel, part three upper faces and part 16 faces.
Breech florals, side plate, trigger guard, estucheon, buttcap and grotesque face mask all in decorated silver.
Caliber 15 mm.
Ramrod missing.
Questions:
Age ... 18th century?
Origin ... Portuguese, Spanish or French with a Spanish lock?
Anyone care to comment?

Fernando

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Old 25th October 2009, 10:17 PM   #2
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One more

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Old 26th October 2009, 04:14 AM   #3
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Looks cool! Would it be considered a derringer?
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Old 26th October 2009, 03:50 PM   #4
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Hi Fernando,

Though this is not as old as most pieces that am headed for I like your little pistol, especially the nicely constrasting blackened stock and the embossed silver inlays. Most of all, however, I admire the perfectly homgeneous surface patina.

I tend to assigning it to either Spain or Portugal, ca. 1730-50 but will look up what little I can find in my humble library (not a joke because I am not really overfed with books on Italian, Spanish and Portuguese arms). Also: I should not totally rule out Southern Italy as a possible provenance.

Best wishes,
Michael
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Old 26th October 2009, 10:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KuKulzA28
Looks cool! Would it be considered a derringer?


I guess not, for a couple reasons. Derringers are an Americanism, and first appeared in the 1850's, with the percussion system, later than flintlock, as this example.
Fernando
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Old 26th October 2009, 10:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Fernando,

Though this is not as old as most pieces that am headed for I like your little pistol, especially the nicely constrasting blackened stock and the embossed silver inlays. Most of all, however, I admire the perfectly homgeneous surface patina.

I tend to assigning it to either Spain or Portugal, ca. 1730-50 but will look up what little I can find in my humble library (not a joke because I am not really overfed with books on Italian, Spanish and Portuguese arms). Also: I should not totally rule out Southern Italy as a possible provenance.

Best wishes,
Michael


Oh, thank you Michael
I never thought your attention would contemplate 'young' pieces like this one.
I note your point about the Italian possibility.
Amazing how a person from my neighbourhood (not Rainer ) so firmly sugests this is a French export production with a Spanish lock .
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Old 27th October 2009, 04:25 AM   #7
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Hi Fernando,
ANOTHER wonderful piece!! You certainly come across some very interesting items.
I would call it either a pocket pistol or perhaps more likely what was popularly called a travelling pistol.
I personally would not call it a derringer.
Regards Stuart
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Old 27th October 2009, 10:26 AM   #8
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Beautiful piece. Caliber?

I hace seen identical verticsl stripes on the striking face of the frizzen in Spanish Migueletes.

Any punzon/poincon armourer's marks?

M

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Fernando,
ANOTHER wonderful piece!! You certainly come across some very interesting items.
I would call it either a pocket pistol or perhaps more likely what was popularly called a travelling pistol.
I personally would not call it a derringer.
Regards Stuart
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Old 27th October 2009, 04:40 PM   #9
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Very well observed, Manuel,

But South Italian, Sardinian and Turkish miquelets too have vertically ribbed frizzens in order to produce a bigger shower of sparks.

Fernando, there seems to be indeed a certain French influence in both the decoration of the barrel and the embossed silver on the stock. As there is no doubt that the lock originally belongs because the figured stock closely follows its characteristical contours, especially at the bottom line, the thesis of a French export model in the Portuguese or Spanish taste is worth considering in my opinion.

Best,
Michael
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Old 27th October 2009, 08:31 PM   #10
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Danke Mike,

Remember that a significant portion of the Spanish Population was kinda' apish of anything that came from enlightened France, the "afrancesados"were usually well to do, I have seen many of their personal accoutrements following french style.

I don't know of any miguelete locks being made in France, which after all invented the flintlock. The spanish/portuguese had the more powerful and reliable Patilla/Miguelete, and also the Madrid and A la mode lock hybrids...

Personally, I don't see the French making a spanish lock. It's easier for me to imagine a spanish armourer making a french styled pistol for some well-to-do petit chevalier-"señorito".

BTW, what was the difference, if any, bt the british and the french flintlocks?

Best

M
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Old 28th October 2009, 07:11 PM   #11
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Hi Manolo,

No, they would not make miquelete locks in France ... did i say so ?

In a wider interpretation of the opinion i talked about, it could either be a French pistol with a Spanish lock or a Spanish pistol in a French decoration style.

" Na minha opinião trata-se de uma pistola de pederneira, com fecho espanhol , com muita influência francesa.
A fecharia é nitidamente espanhola, muito usada nas peças de exportação. Aliás de espanhol só tem a fecharia. Se tivesse uma fecharia à francesa a arma era francesa. Não é de excluir ter sido feita em França para o mercado espanhol ... "


The caliber, as said, is around 15 mm.
There are no marks or punctions.

BTW, let me tell you that, to my ignorant eyes, there is a great resemblance between the lock of the pistol you posted above and my example.
Is that pistol yours? Can you post pictures of the side plate? I heard that if the plate is fixed with several little nails, it could be a Rippol weapon.
Can you establish its origin ... Spanish? Ripoll? this is very important ... please tell.

I have also detected a pistol attributed to Ripoll production, with the barrel in a fashion similar to mine: first section with an upper 3/8 faces and the rest with 16 faces all round:

http://www.armasantiguas.com/avancarca/htm/1086bls.htm

I wonder if this barrel profile is a Spanish (or even Ripoll) exclusive fashion; that might also be a way to confirm the origin of my piece.

Fernando

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Old 30th October 2009, 12:11 PM   #12
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Hola Nando,

Michael suggested the french provenance.

Your portuguese source and me share similar opinions.

Zorry! The pistol's images I provided belong to a Spanish pistol found at an online auction service. Sadly, mine was not the winning bid, but I did keep the pictures for future reference.

Now, this one is mine (click on the thumbs) :











Portate mal!

: )

M
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Old 30th October 2009, 05:18 PM   #13
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Hi Nando and Manolo,

I could not acccess the forum for two days because of server problems. Now here is what I found out.

I am still convinced that the decorative style of the pistol is French by origin although I cannot prove it. Neither am I able to name the basic differences between French and English flintlocks - sorry, Manolo, there are too many over three centuries of flintlock development. I could do this with sufficient material on matchlocks and wheel-locks but ... no, I won't dare that ...

Nando, I would date your pistol to about 1730-40 on the grounds of the banana shaped concave moulding in the lower edge of the rear part of the lock plate because this is an international dating criterion common to all flintlocks of the said decades.

I attach scans of Italian miquelets, and even one from Vienna, Austria proving that these locks 'alla catalana', and of mediterranean origin, as Arne Hoff put it (Feuerwaffen I, 1969, p. 233) were widely copied while the rest of those guns mostly kept their national characteristics.

Finally I found two Spanish pistols very close to Nando's in the firearms catalog of the Museo Arqueologico Nacional, so please enjoy.

Best,
Mike(y)
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Old 31st October 2009, 03:53 PM   #14
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Default A Miquelet Musket on a Painting by Jan Brueghel The Younger, ca. 1660

The Painting is called The Allegory of War and was sold in a German auction house in September.

Note the Spanish military musket stock and the blued iron parts of the gun.

Michael
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Old 31st October 2009, 05:36 PM   #15
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Thank you so much for the exampling illustrations, Mike(y).
... and tanks for your view on the age attribution of my specimen.
Yes, pistola #49 has a cock foot similar to mine, which is not the (more)usual straight profile. Same goes for the frizzen spring.
Ah, the Brueghel painting; can you have it wrapped and sent over to my address .
Fernando
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Old 31st October 2009, 11:59 PM   #16
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Hi guys,

I had similar problems accessing the forum.

Nando, have you checked Rubi's "Armamento Portatil Español"?

Best

Yo
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Old 1st November 2009, 03:58 PM   #17
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Hi Manolete,


Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
... Nando, have you checked Rubi's "Armamento Portatil Español"? ...


Nothing of the kind, there.
It's all about large military stuff .
Nando
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Old 3rd November 2009, 10:44 AM   #18
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From a Borders bookstore book. It's dated to 1810...

M
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