Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th September 2008, 11:06 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default Testing members tastes for firearms

I take it that firearms also belong in this Forum; the thing is whether there are members interested in this sort of things.
We know Jim is not so much of a fan of this stuff; i don't know about Ed.
I love the looks of this specimen. Anyone knows what it is ... or willing to know ?
... before i tell the little i ( think i) know about it.
Fernando
Attached Images
   
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2008, 11:43 PM   #2
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Default

fernando, feel free ...




my interests are very broad.
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2008, 11:52 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Hey, watch where your'e aiming that thing at; it might be loaded .
Allright, i'm convinced .
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 01:09 AM   #4
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Default

Without going thru books to verify it, those proof marks look british. Could this be a coach gun or warders gun of some sort?
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 10:54 AM   #5
Queequeg
Member
 
Queequeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit (New Mayapan)
Posts: 96
Default

Being Italian, I've always wanted to get my hands on a genuine Lupara.

Queequeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 12:37 PM   #6
Marc
Member
 
Marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Madrid / Barcelona
Posts: 258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queequeg
Being Italian, I've always wanted to get my hands on a genuine Lupara.

Funny, when I was a child and lived in the countryside, my father had one. Double barrel, .16 gauge, external hammers... it was used originally to give the "start" signal for the rowing races that were held in a nearby lake, in a time and a place where sound amplifiers were not as easy to come by as today. And the first time I shot it I learned why. And for the three following days I kept remembering it while the infernal ringing in my ears slowly, very slowly, started to subdue...
After a while my father get rid of it as the local authorities started to get more strict with, let's say... unorthodox... guns. But I have to admit it had quite a... "romantic"... halo.
My apologies for the nostalgic digression, but this brought me memories
Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 05:36 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Without going thru books to verify it, those proof marks look british. Could this be a coach gun or warders gun of some sort?


This is a sort of blunderbuss, called "bacamarte" in Portuguese and "trabuco" in Castillian, as also optionaly in Portuguese.
These things were usualy a setup made with parts from different origins, mostly that of the barrels. Often a result of regional assembly, by the local smiths. They were largely used in the Peninsula in the beg/mid XIX century, when civilians needed to assure their safety, firstly from invading army astray guys (Napoleonic wars) and later from a consequent troubled period, where outlaws or desperate assailants abunded.
They were very short and handy, easy to conceal under the owner's cape.
This particular one has indeed a .75 British barrel, shortened to 17 inches and "atrabucado" or "abacamartado" ( muzzle widened), mounted on a stock so called "a la Catalunian", and equiped with an action lock of the "patilha" (Miquelete) type, of late generation. Note this is originaly for percussion and not converted from flint, as so often seen.
The barrel was made by some famous John Clive. The trigger guard and ram rod pipe are also British.
Although its stock and lock are basicaly Spanish, this doesn't avoid that it could have being assembled in Portugal. Both cultures and methods were not so strange to each other. It could have also been brought by some Spaniard through the borders, which at the time were not so well defined. In fact, the seller has traded it very close from the (nowadays) Spanish frontier.
Anyway, i find it a very elegant piece.
Fernando
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 07:47 PM   #8
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,171
Default

Firearms aren't my field. But looking at the pictures of these weapons, I must admit they have an atraction.
As always I'm willing to learn. During collecting you see many weapons. Learning about it, broadens your horizon.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2008, 10:09 PM   #9
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,588
Default

Actually my interests get broader every day, and firearms of these earlier periods very much interest me. I especially like these 'trabuco's' as I always knew them from Southern California where I grew up....close to us was a location known as "Trabuco Canyon'. One cannot discount the romantic allure of these powerful guns, and I always think of "The Highwayman".
I once had a great 1880's 12 guage 'coach gun' and had great visions of these discouraging the inevitable bandits. There is something incredibly intimidating about a sawed off shotgun......and for a surprise 'visitor' in the wee hours of the morning, that unmistakable sound of a pump 'guage'!!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 02:23 AM   #10
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Hi Jim,

Do you know the story about Trabuco Canyon and other nearby trabuco landmarks? Apparently, some poor grunt of a soldier in the Portola expedition lost his blunderbuss around Trabuco Creek, and they not only named Trabuco Canyon and Trabuco Mesa after the incident.

Ouch. Lesson is, don't lose your piece when on an expedition of discovery.

The story

Blunder on!

Fearn
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 02:57 AM   #11
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,143
Thumbs up Old/Antique Firearms---YES

Hi Fernando---yes I believe that firearms DO have a place here. My collection over the years has had may firearms of different types in it, but now, due mainly to space available, is not mostly composed of blades. I do still have one item which compliments my collection of Arabian Peninsula blades. It is an old 577/450 cal Martini Henry Rifle, which is decorated in silver. This item came from Oman.
I do keep an eye out for firearms still, and if something particularly took my fancy and was not at a crazy price, I could well be tempted.
There is not (as far as I know) a Forum of this type for old firearms, though if there is, perhaps someone can publish the details.
Maybe a further sub heading on this Forum??
Pics attached.
Attached Images
   
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 10:09 PM   #12
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... There is not (as far as I know) a Forum of this type for old firearms, though if there is, perhaps someone can publish the details.
Maybe a further sub heading on this Forum??
Pics attached.


Hi Stuart,
I reckon my tastes favour specimens prior to center fire ... more to the muzzle loading version ... percussion or, if available and affordable, flint.
It's already quite fine that this new Forum was born ( or reborn) and things are not so bad this way. While the main ethnographic Forum now covers also firearms, we have in this one European firearms, which implicitely cover edged and also firearms.
It just about does it. We just have to hope there are members interested in feeding this section; even if just a fraction of the quorum that assists the main discussion one ... well, a decent fraction
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 10:29 PM   #13
chevalier
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 119
Default

personally i prefer firearms from 1900 on.


springfield 1903 in 30.06

m1 garand

mosin nagant 7.52 mm

m-14

modern automatic weapons (fun to fire) (G-3/G-36, SIG 550, AK5, MP5, ect)
chevalier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 10:45 PM   #14
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

The days i enjoyed firing modern weapons are gone; Military service and guerrila warfare was just about enough for me. I actually try to forget it now.
I guess that what motivates me to collect is a cocktail of abstract fantasy from youth ( the only then available American culture influence, westerns and so ), curiosity for mechanisms and the charm of antiquity.
No pleasure in shooting any more.
I take it that this Forum is for antique stuff, rather than active specimens; for the late i'm not to be counted in.
Fernando

Last edited by fernando : 6th September 2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason: word addition
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2008, 11:12 PM   #15
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Default

I have an eclectic firearms collection including a 1/3 model of one of Nelson's 24 pdrs, a copy of the Loshult Gun two doppelhackens that I will write up at some point, and two wall guns. I also have a variety of post 1900 pistols and rifles. I have a weakness for Lugers. I will restrict my posts to the stuff from <1600.

I have a couple of models of Mons Meg and a really long and tedious story about an 1850's photography exhibition that featured a photo of a model of Mons Meg and where that self-same model is today.



Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 04:02 AM   #16
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Fernando---yes I believe that firearms DO have a place here. My collection over the years has had may firearms of different types in it, but now, due mainly to space available, is not mostly composed of blades. I do still have one item which compliments my collection of Arabian Peninsula blades. It is an old 577/450 cal Martini Henry Rifle, which is decorated in silver. This item came from Oman.
I do keep an eye out for firearms still, and if something particularly took my fancy and was not at a crazy price, I could well be tempted.
There is not (as far as I know) a Forum of this type for old firearms, though if there is, perhaps someone can publish the details.
Maybe a further sub heading on this Forum??
Pics attached.



Outstanding example of the Martini-Henry!! and actually one of my favorites as far as vintage military rifles.These can still be found at reasonable prices (beware of growing number of these of questionable integrity exiting Afghanistan from what I have heard).
There is most definitely a place where antique firearms can be discussed....right here! no need for a subforum as this forum is intended to provide a place for comprehensive general discussion of arms and armour from early to end of the 19th century, sorry Chevalier The 'modern' firearms, while exciting to shooting enthusiasts ,are better discussed in a more specialized medium not focused on historical weapons.
As Fernando has noted, modern firearms sometimes present a decidedly different connotation, one that many of us choose to not recall, and prefer to focus on the historical examples.

Fearn, excellent reference to the Trabuco Canyon story! Thank you!
I always thought 'Trabuco Canyon' had a most romantic ring to it, and here is a good example of the contrast between antique and modern.....imagine if a more familiar weapon was lost and we named it "12 Guage Canyon"
Just not the same.

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 7th September 2008 at 04:42 AM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 01:03 PM   #17
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Default

Hello Fernando,

You have a Spanish Miguelete Lock percussion "escopeta catalana".

Probably a flintlock converted to percussion in or around 1830.

Best

Manuel Luis




Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
I take it that firearms also belong in this Forum; the thing is whether there are members interested in this sort of things.
We know Jim is not so much of a fan of this stuff; i don't know about Ed.
I love the looks of this specimen. Anyone knows what it is ... or willing to know ?
... before i tell the little i ( think i) know about it.
Fernando
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 03:40 PM   #18
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
... I will restrict my posts to the stuff from <1600 ...


???
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2008, 03:55 PM   #19
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 162
Default

I just mean that I will stick to my early firearms.
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2008, 04:29 AM   #20
Gonzalo G
Member
 
Gonzalo G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico
Posts: 458
Default

Fernando, would be it short enough to call it "trabuco naranjero"?
Regards

Gonzalo
Gonzalo G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2008, 05:28 AM   #21
FenrisWolf
Member
 
FenrisWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The days i enjoyed firing modern weapons are gone; Military service and guerrila warfare was just about enough for me. I actually try to forget it now.
I guess that what motivates me to collect is a cocktail of abstract fantasy from youth ( the only then available American culture influence, westerns and so ), curiosity for mechanisms and the charm of antiquity.
No pleasure in shooting any more.
I take it that this Forum is for antique stuff, rather than active specimens; for the late i'm not to be counted in.
Fernando



If you've a fondness for the romanticized American West, you might take a look at the Single Action Shooting Society (http://www.blackjackmcginnis.com/sa.../2008/index.htm), founded about twenty years ago by a bunch of rich old gun nuts who were bored with modern arms competitions. The competitions are done in period costume using single-action revolvers, lever action rifles and side-by-side shotguns. Your persona can be anyone real or imaginary from the Old West to Western cinema, so long as someone else hasn't registered it. The big meets might see Wyatt Earp competing against Tom Mix, while Dangerous Dan McGee is facing off against The Loan Arranger. Thery've gone international; I know there's chapters in Australia and Canada, who knows where else by now? BTW, my own handle is Lew Nassad, agent of the Sam Hane Occult Detective Agency.
FenrisWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2008, 06:45 AM   #22
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,143
Smile Not True Martini Henry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Outstanding example of the Martini-Henry!! and actually one of my favorites as far as vintage military rifles.These can still be found at reasonable prices (beware of growing number of these of questionable integrity exiting Afghanistan from what I have heard).


Just noticed your comment re this. This is not a "real" Martini Henry, and the story goes that this is one of many which were "built" in Pakistan and traded or smuggled to various Middle Eastern countries. This one in 577/450 cal is very early and the later ones were .303. It has no marks of any sort but despite being a "copy" is surprisingly well made. Collected in the Oman during the time of the Yemeni incursions by a friend of mine who was a mercenary in the Sultans Armed Forces and subsequently smuggled out again when he left there for NZ. (Exporting of firearms was absolutely banned at the time.)
I believe that the backyard builders of firearms can make you anything you want including the AK47. When you consider that the machines which make the real thing are not available, I think they do very well!!!


There is most definitely a place where antique firearms can be discussed....right here! no need for a subforum as this forum is intended to provide a place for comprehensive general discussion of arms and armour from early to end of the 19th century, sorry Chevalier The 'modern' firearms, while exciting to shooting enthusiasts ,are better discussed in a more specialized medium not focused on historical weapons.
As Fernando has noted, modern firearms sometimes present a decidedly different connotation, one that many of us choose to not recall, and prefer to focus on the historical examples.

Fearn, excellent reference to the Trabuco Canyon story! Thank you!
I always thought 'Trabuco Canyon' had a most romantic ring to it, and here is a good example of the contrast between antique and modern.....imagine if a more familiar weapon was lost and we named it "12 Guage Canyon"
Just not the same.

--
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2008, 06:06 PM   #23
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenrisWolf
If you've a fondness for the romanticized American West ...


Thank you Fenris, but is something that stopped in time. It's kind of abstract ... can not be put to real. I don't think i would dig reenactings.
But thanks for the link; it was kind of you.
I find the name "Loan Arranger" fantastic, though.
Fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2012, 10:10 PM   #24
Keith
Member
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wychwood Forest, Armidale NSW, New England Australia
Posts: 2
Default What Is It?

This gun looks Spanish in design, but I am confused by the percussion hammer & scent bottle type drum. The main spring on the exterior of the lock suggests along with the overall design a much earlier firearm?!
Regards, Keith.
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 01:02 PM   #25
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Welcome to the forum Keith.
Concerning your remarks, have you taken the previous posts describing this weapon in consideration ... origin, age and all?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 01:24 PM   #26
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 407
Default

Hola Fernando

Me parece que es una adaptación de un fusil militar: de allí el calibre (.75) y las fornituras; también las marcas del Banco de Pruebas, GP y V coronadas, aunque carece del punzón de la Torre y del punzón de propiedad real. No he tenido en mis manos el cañón, pero me parece que se ha soldado el "masacote" para atornillar la chimenea (niple), o sea que el cañón era originariamente de chispa. Tal vez sea un fusil construído para la Compañia de Indias.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello Fernando

I think it's an adaptation of a military rifle: hence the caliber (.75) and the trimmings; also the proof marks, GP and crowned V, although it lacks the punch of the Tower and the punch of royal property. I have not had my hands on the gun, but i think that the "masacote" has been welded to screw the chimney (nipple), meaning that the barrel was originally for a flintlock. Maybe it's a rifle built for the East India Company.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Last edited by fernando : 21st January 2012 at 01:36 PM.
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 01:37 PM   #27
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Can you define "masacote", Fernando?
Que significa el termo "masacote" ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 10:08 PM   #28
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 304
Default

That's an interesting firearm Fernando, and I do think we can share place for historic firearms as well. I think the word you used, "patilha", origintes in old Arabic, because "fitil" means actually cord fuse or cord match, so the phrase "Abu-fitil" meaned matchlock gun, later any long gun.

Shotguns played a major role with the defence of hebrew settlements during the pre-state phase, 1880-1948, mostly long side-by-side either Belgian or British, and after 1918 onwards the "Abu-hamsa" (arabic for "Father of five") took also place in the scene; You know it as FN-Browning semi-auto with 5 cartridges.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 10:18 PM   #29
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 407
Default

Hola, Fernando

"Masacote" es el término que se aplica al trozo de metal que se usa para la conversión de un cañón (barrel) de chispa (flint) a percusión. Se siguieron dos métodos, tradicionalmente: la soldadura a base de cobre, en el lugar del oído o el agrandado y roscado de este, y la introducción por roscado de la pieza. Por supuesto que la pieza tiene un canal para permitir el paso del fogonazo producido por la ceba fulminante y una perforación mas grande y roscada para permitir el roscado de la chimenea (niple). "Masacote" viene de "masa".

En los cañones originarios de percusión, el masacote está forjado, y forma parte de la parte final (breech).

Afectuosamente (y pese a la traducción) Fernando K

Hello, Fernando

"Masacote" is the term applied to the piece of metal used for the conversion of a barrel from flint to percussion. Two methods were followed, traditionally, the copper soldering in place of the fire hole or its enlargibng and threading, for the introduction of the piece. Of course, the piece has a channel to allow passage of the priming spark produced by lightning and a larger and threaded hole to allow the placxement of the nipple. "Masacote" comes from "mass".

In the barrels originating from percussion, the masacote is forged, and is part of the breech.

Affectionately (and despite the translation) Fernando K

.

Last edited by fernando : 22nd January 2012 at 01:32 PM.
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2012, 10:36 PM   #30
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 407
Default

Hola a todos:

Fernando usó el término "Patilha" que es la traducción del español "patilla". Patilla es el diminutivo de "Pata" y se refiere al apéndice que tiene el gatillo (pié de gato") y que monta sobre los "calzos". Patilla también es la parte del pelo que está delante de la oreja, y que tiene esa forma

Hello all,
Fernando used the term "Patilha" which is the Spanish translation of "patilla"". Patilla is the diminutive of "Pata" (hoof) and refers to the appendix that the trigger has (cat foot), that mounts on the "calzos" (sears) . Patilla is also part of the hair in front of the ear, which has that form.

.

Last edited by fernando : 22nd January 2012 at 02:34 PM.
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:57 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.