|
9th March 2012, 01:50 PM
|
#271 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly.
 But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer) http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...-kattara-sword It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso. |
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 02:30 PM
|
#272 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9. However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords. Thank you for the clear reference and pictures. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th March 2012 at 02:42 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 03:18 PM
|
#273 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
Quote:
I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here.  To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade. I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif. By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia. I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all.  I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades. Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts. Cheers, Iain |
|
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 04:56 PM
|
#274 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;
1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been. 2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners) 3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons. 4. Non hybridised Omani swords that include Zanzibari Nimcha and what we sometimes in Forum terms describe as Shamshir; That is those curved Persian, Safavid blades on typical cross hilts, designed originally by a Syrian master working for the Persian Royal Court and Hyderabadi similar styles (probably favoured and accepted into Omani style because of the large Hyderabadi influence in Muscat..traders and merchants. Whilst these are clearly weapons they were worn like other badge of office swords as Icons or Court Swords. Not fighting swords. 5. Karabela shaped hilts with Nimcha blades with and without quillons appear but are mainly Yemeni... with European blades etc. The hawkshead hilt has transmitted onto shorter blades for use on board ship as a slashing sword; some short others medium and could squeeze in on the cutlass design of ships styles..The shorter style used as a long utility knife. 6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords. 7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues. 8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield. 9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 05:22 PM
|
#275 |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,338
|
""Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;""
I see nothing in your research that academically support the notion that Straight saif is dance only. If so, then correct me with a link or 2, there is no shame in that! ""1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been."" I dont agree. I dont see anything that supports this. Infact, even one of our senior members (Jim Macdougall) disagrees with this. ""2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)"" an unproved claim. Nothing more nothing less. You are ignoring alot of evidence countering this. ""3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons."" Thanks for countering your own argument. Why would a dancing sword form (hilt) be used for a badge of office? it makes no sense when that can be used with a more formidable battle form. Like it always has been everywhere (shamshirs, kilijs, saifs etc maintaining their original war form even though they are just dress swords) ""6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords."" So are you saying that khyber knives, yataghans, dhas, shashkas etc are just dress swords now?:P There is no evidence supporting that but hey, lets ignore the battles that jannisaries, cossaks and pashtu's fought in maybe they were all using Omani battle swords ""7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues."" You are strawmanning my use of the badawi analogy. But here you go: http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1007 ""8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield."" Sure, the Omani battle sword is pretty much what it is, a battle sword. But there are many weapons which do not have quillons, double edges, spiked pommels etc but are used in battle. I see no point in repeating this over and over again but your argument ignores ALOT of evidence. ""9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case."" The shashka, the dha, the bedouin shashka, the central asia shashka are not short weapons. The yataghan and khyber knife sometimes are short. These are a proof that quillons are not 100% important for a sword to be a battle one and them being non-Omani is irrelevant. |
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 05:42 PM
|
#276 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
I assume this was not directed at myself but rather at A.alnakkas...?
Cheers, Iain Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 08:08 PM
|
#277 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts. To be fair I know that this takes some believing not least by people who may think they have a genuine fighting Omani sword when in fact they have not.. As explained the dancing sword is not a fighting sword. To be even fairer many people in history (visitors in the 19th C noted at thread) have been duped by the appearance of the broadsword like aspect, seemingly, a two handed battlesword and used by very agressive tribesmen in the mimic fight style but they were mistaken since it is only a pageantry sword. Whilst this is not even made absolutely clear in the herritage book on Omani swords which tries to explain the nature of the wavy straight variant(another dancing type of Sayf essentially the same as the straight dancing sword but with a wavy blade) as having been bathed in blood, the authors use the clever wording It is said that meaning it is probably rumour only. Certainly the authors had not the time to spend months on retrieving the truth which is that these are not battle swords. The flexible Omani Straight Sayf (or the similar wavy variant) is a dancing sword only. All the other details are as I have indicated and are included in the reference as proven. Where I have indicated they are capable of being weapons that is the case... Where they are badge of office that is fact. When I indicate tourist weapon or sword... that is what they are; confirmed by the workshop owner (and shop owners) in Muscat Souk that has converted them since about 1970. Where I speak about the Old Omani Battle Sword that can be seen at thread and in Omani UAE and Kuwait museums(they have one of ours). The only true Omani Battle Sword (also Iconic). The Sayf Yamaani. I know that the long handled Omani curved Kattara looks formidable ~ It really does look like it could cause a lot of damage and it probably could but it is not a weapon ... It is a sword of Badge of Office..Only. That is its purpose in life. A dress sword. Bye the way I have also seen it waggled in the air at pageants but that is not its purpose. Badge of Office. You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers. The Old Omani Sayf Yamaani Battlesword is a different case study and whilst it is the only really true Omani Battlesword it too was Iconised in the al Busaidi Dynasty being rehilted on the Royal hilt.. Thread refers. With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased. As always, however, I am open to constructive criticism. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th March 2012 at 08:24 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
9th March 2012, 08:46 PM
|
#278 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,338
|
""Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.""
I may have missed it, but dont remember anything about straight saifs being dance only from a museum? as far as I remember, you came up with this idea when you saw an ethiopian blade being "rehilted" ""You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers."" Your point about the quillons has nothing to do with countries. You deemed the saif not a combat weapon due to "being quillonless" and not due to being Omani. This is, as proven by alot of evidence to be nothing but hot air at best. ""With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased."" So citing that one of our most experienced members is in an agreement with me is a bad thing now? Here is a quote from JM: Quote:
Regardless, I rest my case, because you, my good friend Ibrahim so far have been repeating your assumptions without any effort in deconstructing my replies. You also have engaged in fallacies and misrepresenting reality when you refered to Swords as knives to support your case. Keep in mind that I have absolutely nothing to lose or gain with Straight saifs being whatever they are but the evidence to support your conclusion was less then weak, it was ridiculous
|
|
|
|
|
|
10th March 2012, 03:51 AM
|
#279 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
I would like to clarify something here......my last post as I indicated at the beginning of its text, were 'my own perceptions' concerning various elements of our'discussion. The very reason it was not addressed to any specific participant is that is was its clear intent, to state my own positions, not anyone elses. I emphatically resent the implication that I favor any party in, or do I want any part of personality charged debate between members. Here I will also emphatically note that these discussions will leave out personal issues between members and hold to presenting information or opinions and observations without unnecessary comments or remarks.
We are better than this guys, and we are here to advance knowledge..it is not a contest. This thread has been an excellent foray into the deeply clouded history of these fascinating swords, and I very much respect the field work being undertaken by Ibrahiim in Oman, as well as the cultural knowledge held by Lofty who is situated in Kuwait. I have learned a great deal thus far in these proceedings as I have been inspired to dig deeper into my own notes and resources augmented by the great information presented by them and others who have participated here. As has been noted, myself as well as other forum members do respond to material presented and well supported and the very purpose of our discussions which indeed does often result in changes of opinion and revised data. I think that the idea of dance swords being separate from combat swords is of course quite likely in modern times and with the well known production of swords for the souvenier markets. However, I believe that swords of the classification 'kattara' as generally held in term, but as we have determined are often called by the collective term sa'if, were in earlier times capable of the dynamics used in both combat and dance. In "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994, p.16), he notes, citing J.R.Wellstead ("Travels in Arabia", 1838) large groups of men performing the war dance, and they parry neither with sword nor shield but avoid blows by leaping or bounding backwards. The blade of thier sword is three feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor. As they carry it upright before them, by a peculiar motion of thier wrist they cause it to vibrate in a vary singular manner, which has a singularly striking effect when they are assembled in any considerable number. Op.cit.p.16, the author James Fraser ("Narrative of a Journey into Khorasan in the Years 1821 and 1822", repr Delhi, 1984) cites a visit to the Omani garrison at Ormuz. The troops had a broadsword and target similar to those of Highlanders, ..."some made in Yemen, but greater part are procured from Egypt, whither they are brought from different parts of the Meditteranean. Many are seen with the Solingen mark, many with Andrea Ferrara marks. These swords are sharp and thin and previous to making use of them in attack, they make them quiver and ring in the hand with a jerk, while held in an upright position and then charge with loud shouts". Here I would point out that the swords from Egypt are likely those used in kaskara and takouba variably, and from my understanding many of these blades are remarkably flexible. I think that the degree of vibration with different blades of course may cause variation in the effects audibly, but the larger number would be capable of the desired vibratory effect somewhat. In Elgood (fig. 2.16) a 'long hilt' Omani sa'if is shown and noted to have a locally produced blade of 18th-19th c. which strongly resembles the German type imports. On p.33 (op.cit.) author B.Thomas ("Arabia Felix" , 1938) notes that "...the Omani use thier swords in tribal dancing and make the blade quiver. The so called 'halab' blades are best for this". It is further noted in this reference that the author attended the Razif in Doha, Qatar held to celebrate victory in Gulf war and noticed many tribes from other areas of Arabia did the same. I think that it would be productive to continue the discussion using these reference notes as observed and cited by the respected arms author and historian Robert Elgood along with the material assembled thus far, and perhaps look into further descriptions of the noted 'halab' type blade. Lets take this thread to its full potential in establishing the history, development and understanding of these important swords and leave behind the unnecessary positioning OK guys? Thank you so much, and with respect, Jim |
|
|
|
|
10th March 2012, 06:11 AM
|
#280 |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,338
|
Hello Guys,
I just wanted to say that when I quoted Jim I had no intention of making any sort of positioning. To me, it was like quoting a book or any other external source. As Jim's knowledge far preceed many of us! so I apologize if I came out that way and.. Maybe this would push Jim to write a book so we can quote him all we want! :-)Imho, this discussion is a positive one and we should be open to any possibility that evidence points to. After all, I think many of us collect these items as works of art regardless of their original purpose. Thanks for the quotes Jim, I think this evidence would support that straight saif is a combat weapon. |
|
|
|
|
10th March 2012, 06:38 AM
|
#281 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Salaams Jim, Your advice and points of detail are respected and in particular upon the final instructions to get on with the research. I was particularly interested in the Hormuz and other visitors to Oman. I posted on# 164 a precis of such visitors activity viz
1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter.... 2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor. 3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields.. It is, however, those visitors remarks ( At para 1 and 2 above) that part cloud the issue since they were on scene for perhaps minutes or hours as onlookers rather than fully focussed on precise research on the subject of this dancing sword. In the case of the other (At para 3) could it be that he was viewing the Omani Short Battle Sword since it too looks like a Scotish Broadsword to the untrained eye and in the hands of quite physically small Omani men ? It is also possible that both visitors (1 and 3) were looking at the Old Battle Sword or the dancing sword~ it is not clear. It is however placed as a reference. Co-incidentally I was researching a book detail last night and reccommend to Forum Ian Skeets Oman Before 1970. The End of an Era. (actually a rewrite of Muscat and Oman which was a far better tittle as it describes in 3 words the immense difference between the Coastal belt Omanis and the Interior Omanis in history. This is a masterful work full of incredible detail and with an eye on the virtually mediaeval state of the country only about 50 years ago with anecdotes on its ancient history quite new to me. He very much is aware of the mythical nature of Oman and the fables and pure storytelling that has gone on down the ages. In one such story an amazing fact has surfaced concerning the Saif Yamaani (The Old Omani Battle Sword) and its possible manufacturing base. In Omani History there is a story about Malik bin Fahm the founder of Oman who originally lived in Yemen. One day one of the tribesmen complained that one of Maliks men had killed his dog. Malik was mortified and complained that this was an outragious insult and that he would leave the country immediately~ and joined by a large party of his followers he duly did... East to Oman. A fanciful reason to leave notes the author however that the likely reason in fact was the collapse of the Mehrab dam. In truth the dam did burst however more gradually than is imagined and could have taken 300 years to finally become useless...There may well have been a large early exodus and at the same time a gradual follow on..over 3 centuries. Dog or no dog Malik left "in what they say" was the second century a.d. On arrival near Nizwa Malik became aware that the Persians were centred in Sohar and other garrisons and wrote to the Marzaban(Persian Governor) giving him notice of his intent to settle in Oman and if he didn't like the idea they would have a battle... To cut a long story short there were several battles in which the Persians were completely routed elephants 40,000 men and all..after which the Omanis settled on a happy ever after note and Malik lived til he was 120. His spirit is alive in that region today and people of the Azdite or Yemeni tribes will swear he was their great great grandfather in a bewildering mathematical exercise depending on their imagination... however, that is not important... Malik is. He was decended from the Azd tribe as part of the Qahtan line of Arab ancestry tribes usually referred to as Yemeni in that they settled in Yemen. The other line from Adnan originally settled in northern Arabia and referred to as Nizari. Both lines settled in Oman; Malik bin Fahms Yemeni Azdites being one of the settlements in that line. As timelines go that puts us somewhere in the mid 2nd century to the mid 4th allowing for myth and legend and history mixed...So what does this have to do with swords...? Near Nizwa, the often capital of the Interior, and later seat of Ibadiism, and a production area for copper and iron objects where the bellows was an early discovery in furnace production, is a small town called Izki; one of the oldest Omani towns. One of its quarters is called Yemen. Another is called Nizar even to this day. Each belongs to the direct decendant tribe Beni Ruwaha and Beni Riyam; Qahtani and Nizari direct decendants ! Later the Omanis rose up under Immam Julanda against the Iraqi garrisons subjugating the country in about 751 a.d. that the weapons they used were called Sayf Yamaani The Old Omani Battle Swords. It is postulated that they were made not in The Yemen but near Nizwa at Izki in the quarter called Yemen. Research in that direction is ongoing. I further submit that the reference book Oman before 1970 The End of an Era, by Ian Skeet, be logged with research and for bibliography. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 10th March 2012 at 06:49 AM. |
|
|
|
|
10th March 2012, 03:00 PM
|
#282 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.
The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material. As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them. I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them. Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance. I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia? Thank you again guys, All the best, Jim |
|
|
|
|
10th March 2012, 07:15 PM
|
#283 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
The ancient name of the city, Halab, is also its Arabic name in the modern day. It is of obscure origin. Some have proposed that Halab means 'iron' or 'copper' in Amorite languages since it was a major source of these metals in antiquity. Halaba in Aramaic means white, referring to the color of soil and marble abundant in the area. Another proposed etymology is that the name Halab means "gave out milk," coming from the ancient tradition that Abraham gave milk to travelers as they moved throughout the region.[13] The colour of his cows was ashen (Arab. shaheb); therefore the city is also called Halab ash-Shahba ("he milked the ash-coloured"). Whereas I cannot find precise information about Omani blades from there it would make sense that there were some perhaps in the Shamshir variety and as a concoction of swords also through Iran since the Shamshir of Safavid form was made by a famous Iraqi swordsmith in the Safavid royal court and his stamp typically copied down the ages. On the subject of the witnesses in the 19th C in and around Oman and Hormuz I agree that it is interesting but hugely difficult to substantiate and would ask that caution be duly observed. I find it odd that on a single visit a sword blade mark could be identified such as "Solingen" or "andrea ferrera" (probably in style) by someone unaccustomed to the traditions and idiosyncracies in Omani sword work... Perhaps like others (e.g.Burton?) there has been a tendency to embelish a story later? Perhaps he saw one straight variant (the dancing Sword ) or two ( e.g. Also The Old Omani Battle Sword) ? I think at best we can only hold these anecdotes up and hope a light shines through them at some future researched point. It occured to me when I was researching claymore swords and as a spin off on the European Forum delving into Falchion and Malchus I ended up on a forum search looking at Italian blades and how strikingly similar they were to some straight Red Sea blades I have seen hilted on Omani long hilts. Schiovana blades. As observed I can report no clear link (as yet) for Omani dancing blades to European factories though I believe a good reference is available on the subject.(German Sword Makers?) I have only identified local manufacture and some itinerant work by Zutoot and pre about 1970. All my references outline dance not war though the Museum mentions European blades it is not specific and could simply be referring to curved Kattara blades. I dont have the Elgood straight sword picture and wondered if that could be published here please? I am sifting through the book by Ian Skeet on Oman before 1970 and turned up another small gem regarding the Khojas of Muscat... a trader network of families now itegrated into Omani Society along with The Baluch and Persian Baharina. The Khojas are Hyderabadi leading merchant class. ( Thus the Hyderabad swords linkage could be clear) Without these now integrated groups and of course the Indian contingency, Oman before 1970 would have ground to a halt. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Notes; 1. Halab detail courtesy Wiki encyclopaedia. 2. Khojas detail etc courtesy Ian Skeet. Oman before 1970. |
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 09:53 AM
|
#284 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin. Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted. An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me ! The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it.. Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain. Thank you for your post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th March 2012 at 10:21 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 12:33 PM
|
#285 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
Hi Ibrahiim,
Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already! ).I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out. Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance. Cheers, Iain Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 06:39 PM
|
#286 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Iain ~ I have the match dates of these weapons at # 228 and 229 from the Muttrah workshop owner and it is about 2000; only 12 years ago... They came as blades from Yemen. They roughly follow the Sayf Yamaani style in one case the centre sword whilst at top the long hilt is Solingen ...and done for a tourist ( I actually know the tourist owner!) The weak lower blade at reference is a possible contender as a replacement for the Omani Battlesword from European sources but is as yet unsubstantiated. At the same time I am aware of the weight of evidence that suggests the European trade Blade influx everywhere from the Museums through to respected volumes on Islamic Swords. It is like looking at UFOs ! Every one of the interloper blades falls short on fact. They are either fitted as tourist weapons as late as last week ! and have come down the red sea and been rehilted often in Muttrah sucking in blades from Yemen and sucking in tourists in the souk ! Having said that; should evidence of a Trade Blade appear I will be the first to publish the fact to forum... as yet ... nothing. Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature on old Khanjars. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the Forum owner would have responded but to no avail as yet. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously. Could it be that Sayf Yamaani = Izki Near Nizwa in the quarter called Yemen and predating Islam by about 400 years with that name. As you know; I view the fighting weapon and the dancing weapon quite differently and it is in the transitional period ( pure guesswork at this point) that things get interesting. Was it 1744 / 1799 the bracket of time in which the Busaidi dynasty took control or before or after? Was it Yaruuba; the previous dynasty? Is it neither and associated only with the Funoon and therefor the Ibaathi seat at Nizwa? When did the Old Battle Sword succumb or give over its possition in the Funoon to the new flexible Sayf wa Ters? At whatever date ... say circa 1750ad for argument sake (though its a guess) the design was approved for a non fighting pageantry sword. The Old Battle sword continued as a weapon but faded on the pageant side being superceded, however, it was adopted as an Iconic dress sword with the royal hilt as at thread...# 211... to date ! We know who instigated the Royal Hilt Khanjar and when so it is likely the two hilts happened together. They are virtually identical. Therefor we have the date of both the Royal Khanjar and the Omani Battle Swords Iconisation. The question arrises on replacement blades on the Omani Battle Swords (Sayf Yamaani) In the biggest collections of these weapons comprising between 20 and 30 weapons each ... there are no thin replacement blades of European nature. Rumour has it that a skinny quite useless blade appeared from Europe (17th C ?)... and this is born out by at least one collector who simply refused to have that type in his collection. I have pictured a peculiar couple of swords in Muscat one of which may be the style being talked about. Some replacement european blades look very meaty and as in the case of your German trade blade seem to fit the bill. As to accuracy/authenticity or if we are being duped?... I caution beware. The answers are still out there... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th March 2012 at 07:14 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 06:56 PM
|
#287 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 07:22 PM
|
#288 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently.  I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life. Omani Battle Swords aren't flat.. moreover, they are a peculiar broad wing shape in cross section making them quite powerful weapons actually.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 07:26 PM
|
#289 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.
So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of... Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
11th March 2012, 08:11 PM
|
#290 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Iain; Oh yes absolutely...Sayf Yamaani. I was after a few hilt only items as I had some Old hilt parts but incomplete... The hilt is in two halves and often I come across half a hilt and as can be seen in the picture there is a half a hilt so they have the same problem... They had a few spare hilts a few months ago... and one you can see matched onto the triple fuller job... I rang them up following my post on the subject and asked when they did the work ... very recent was the reply. The more I delve into Schiavona blades the more I suspect that blade being a fit for some worked onto Omani long hilts masquerading as dancing swords.. See Schiavona for comments #9 last photo ; at the European forum. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
|
|
12th March 2012, 08:33 AM
|
#291 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.
I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan. I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s). I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes: "...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron". It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well. Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility. The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility. It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward. I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected. It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use. It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same. The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case. As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives. All the best, Jim |
|
|
|
|
12th March 2012, 09:20 AM
|
#292 |
|
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
|
There are two points I have mentioned before but I think need to be mentioned again.
1. Blade markings - there is no reason for fake running wolves and other European marks to show up on native made Omani saif blades unless European blades were already in circulation in Oman and widely regarded as a benchmark for quality. 2. A shift in blade profile to something remarkably similar to the European trade blades of the era, the sudden use of fullering where previously there was none and patterns such as the triple fullered blades which closely resemble European imports into the Red Sea region, even though most of the blades on Omani saifs are native made. |
|
|
|
|
12th March 2012, 10:07 AM
|
#293 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams ~ I have no idea who placed or why the running wolf appears on some blades and not on others. The majority dont have it. Many other blades coming down the red sea have it... and on arrival they have been cross hilted matched onto Omani long hilts. There is the example of the tripple fuller at 228 but as you know this blade isnt Omani..I will try to find out who put the fake stamp on that one...if it was done in Muttrah or it arrived like that. The fullering is a question. It was done to dancing swords thats for sure. In addition late Sayf Yamaani were fullered though early examples not it seems... I cannot draw a link to European blades as yet... neither to the old or new swords (of the type Sayf Yamaani and sayf dancing sword). Research continues. Salaams, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
|
|
|
|
12th March 2012, 06:52 PM
|
#294 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Excellent points Iain! and I need to use these concise methods of asserting key points that you guys have well established as effective in moving forward with this complex discussion. However, old dog...'new', or better , different, tricks
Its the writer in me I would like to note first of all that this discussion is an absolute gift, as even in the 90s, the subject of Omani swords was a complete mystery, and these were anomalies among ethnographic weapons. Even Elgood in writing his book on Arabian weapons (1994) noted that the history and origins of these swords were unclear, and even asking Omani personages about them when he was in Arabia researching gave no clear answers. I recall that even when one of these cylindrical hilt swords turned up (including one I obtained) it was a major event among collectors, and these were considered 'rare'. In recent reading on Arabian history, Oman is scarcely mentioned as far as I could find in the references I used. It is mentioned how difficult it was for anyone to get in there, and these were prominant figures in the academic world. What I do know is that the Omani swords I saw around those times, including the one I had, seemed invariably to have Solingen 'type' blades. I also had a pata which had a blade of 'Solingen' type ,again, with the three central fullers and the often seen cosmological array in motif with sun, moon and stars. This seemed to of course suggest that the blades entering the Red Sea trade were indeed filtering into North Africa for kaskaras and takoubas as well as into Ethiopia, Arabia and to trade moving toward India and the western trade centers there. Concerning the use of the familiar markings, in this case particularly the 'Passau wolf'. As has long been well established, these highly stylized zoomorphic marks, usually chiselled free form, when entering other cultures departed thier original intent as quality oriented guild marks. They assimilated quite understandably into the native parlance common to the spectrum of beliefs or perceptions held in those contexts. Typically these were magical or talismanic beliefs believed to represent power transmitted to the blade and the user. We have seen many examples of these kinds of interpretations with the various markings found on kaskara and takouba blades which commonly are described in native context, and are often native applied renderings of the long established repertoire of makings seen on European blades generations before. It is also is known that in many cases, certain makers would adopt certain markings, it was not necessarily a universal or random circumstance. Some makers actually had stamps used rather than the freestyle renderings, especially in the case of the 'dukari' or half moons which were indeed practically universal, however thier exact meanings could have wide interpretation. In the case of the Omani sayfs, I personally believe that there was at some time in earlier years at least some presence of European blades, and while they of course would have been present on combat oriented swords, even if the pageantry profiled weapons were indeed a separate type weapon, at least some makers may have added them. If presuming that the war dance was performed by veteran warriors, it would stand to reason that these kinds of markings would be considered symbolic in terms of valorious service, and not necessarily in the same parlance as perceived on the combat blades. With the recent changes in opening the long restricted boundaries in Oman, and the clearly described advent of burgeoning commercial trade with particular respect to weapons, it seems that the traditional aspects of these weapons have been dramatically clouded by those activities. I would presume that there would be wide variation in choice of blade types as well as adoption of select markings of as many interpretations as would be found in any modern commercial setting. There are of course going to be the usual ranges of skill, knowledge and resources of makers producing the products as well. It seems clear, as Iain has noted, that modern examples of these blades which have probably as Ibrahiim has asserted been produced locally for decades, if not even the last hundred years, were probably made for pageantry as the use of firearms had placed the sword in secondary status as a weapon in combat. It seems with that respect, much as in North Africa, certain makers whose families had long standing following of traditions in producing blades might use these venerable markings while others with less distinct ties might not include them. It is the same with fullering, blade forms etc. these characteristics would follow practices of the maker maintaining his own traditions. There you have it, concisely itemized oh well. All the best, Jim |
|
|
|
|
13th March 2012, 06:43 AM
|
#295 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.
I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan. I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s). I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes: "...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron". It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well. Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility. The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility. It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward. I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected. It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use. It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same. The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case. As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives. All the best, Jim Salaams Jim~ I regret I am a little delayed and behind by a post or two as I am in and out of Buraimi… When first I saw the name Frazer I had to look it up and immediately saw the significance in his name as Clan linked and thought that he must have known the significance of the Claymore as you say. He seems to be the only anecdotal link of substance though I am amazed that in one visit he apparently got down to blade inspections which has a peculiar ring to me and may be over icing on the cake, perhaps, done later? Artistic licence? I have to say that the dancing sword does look warlike (but it is not a weapon) and it could be this that he saw. On the other hand it may have been the Sayf Yamaani. I would say it was certainly one of the two or both. The anecdote is, however, placed well for future reference.. Omani Battle Sword blade. "Sayf Yamaani". Bearing in mind that it is described as designed/introduced in 751 ad and frozen till relatively very recently and even today being Iconized, therefore, many different variations must exist on the blade down the ages... Therefor it is accepted that many blades must have been repaired and replaced at various times and possibly by various makers. The early style had no fullers as technology may not have been there at such an early date... I have swords with no fullers. Some I have seen with fullers which are obviously later models. The Mark 1 style(so to speak) has apparently none. Even in the case of the fullered weapon it is non flexible and would snap after about 25 degrees of bend I suspect. The wing shape across the blade is critical since the middle of the blade is quite thick giving it the ability to chop and slash whilst the point capable of thrust and stab. The German blade flexibility is interesting and I recall the story about the Shotley Bridge master at a sword expo where he had concealed a blade in his top hat such was its flexibility. .. and astounded clients and onlookers when he revealed it. However the Omani dancing blade is not a weapon and I have not yet seen a German blade that I can identify on any I have handled so far. Why would they want to weaponize a pageantry sword? Any sword stamps that I have seen on flexible Omani Dancing Swords have been done locally. I have only seen German stamps on blades that have been brought in and put onto Omani hilts for the tourist market. I have not yet seen a flexible German blade matched to an Omani long hilt and used by Omanis for dancing and have that down to one simple reasoning~ The German sword was a fighting sword, a weapon of war…(if it exists) whilst the Omani dancing sword is a pageantry sword only. I continue to look out for possible German blade replacements for the Old Omani Battle Sword without success… and fear that it could be only a rumour or that it simply was not a successful concept and died out … and vanished ~ Sunk without trace perhaps.. Though I have a hypothesis for the phenomena below. Schiavona ~ I agree on your point about single edges and was about give up, however, on the final picture at my reference on Forum previously posted I also looked at Schiavona Sword Variations #1 on the European ; I noted a double edge Schiavonas which could be a style that has entered the equation… Rather a note on passing than a fixed idea..perhaps worthy of a look. Upon the trade routes I have no questions and accept they were many and varied… What is apparently absolute is that whatever came down the trade route in the shape of a sword the Omanis would be certain to reject a blade not able to buzz in the pageant. I cannot see how these blades if they exist were perhaps then fitted to Sayf Yamaani as an alternative. I can see how they could have been bottled up in some warehouse store in Yemen or Saudia until much later..for rehilting and tourism. I don’t believe the qualities are there inherent in dancing blades to even class them as fighting weapons. Being razor sharp is a red herring. Thin, bendy, not particularly well made and the only specific test being its flexibility ( and round tip) on long hilts.."for dancing and pageants only". Hypothesis. 1. I would be blind however not to notice the plethora of blades with stiffer blades and points emerging on the market. Perhaps these Red Sea Cousins as I call them were intended for the Omani market in say the 19th C and having arrived in Red Sea environs were found to be unsuitable for Omani dancing swords and discarded in a warehouse until some entrepreneurial souk shop owner saw a potential market in foreign tourists? 2.Could it also be possible that these blades were fitted to Omani hilts in the 19th C and plied on the peripheral market around the Red Sea and Zanzibar Hub? Perhaps this would explain the conundrum though I have to say I have absolutely no proof. Slavery was still running at full tilt (and supported by the French) until late in the 19th C so perhaps this was a weapon carried by slaving crews …. What is for certain is that blades are and have been re-hilted in Muttrah Souk Muscat since 1970 (and or other centres) of this nature though I haven’t seen their original condition and what hilts they had if any. Where I consider that confusion has reigned is, in part, because of the terminology since there are of course curved European Blades on Omani and Zanzibari hilts in Shashqa and Nimcha and Karabela forms coined "Kattara" by Omanis. ( naturally the other curved swords of Persian and Hyderabadi and also occasional Damascqi style were also named "Kattara") Notwithstanding this hypothesis; My suspicion remains strongly that these are Red Sea variants; Yemeni or Saudia blades or a mixture of all the possibilities including German being hoisted onto the tourist market as fakes since 1970. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th March 2012 at 07:27 AM. |
|
|
|
|
13th March 2012, 07:07 AM
|
#296 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
A point that I should clear up is on the wolf view by Omanis who routinely used wolf skin on the abu futtila butt next to the cheek as opposed to their reaction to wolf attacks on their livestock (especially the Bedu) where the wolf would be ruthlessly hunted and once caught its head would be stuck on a pole to ward off other "evil influences"...In the case of inclusion on weapons and the "Passau Woolf" it seems clear that it is a talisman. The Omani people will have had a lot of contact through meeting a lot of English (and French and other nationalities) with swords no doubt some of which had Passau Woolf marks and whereas they would not neccessarily have adopted the weapons they could easily have copied the mark.. They did the same with Raj Crown marks..It is pertinent to point out that the most efficient tried and tested weapons on the doorstep that they must have seen almost daily were the Indian Hindu dynasty weapons stretching back far into history... and how many of those extremely varied weapons were copied into the Omani armoury... None! bar the Hyderabadi shamshir and only because of the vast and growing importance of the Khojas in Muscat and that was essentially a court sword. The only thing they ever copied off an Indain sword was the Raj Crown... and they still do in Ras Al Khaimah. The problem inherrent with asking Omani people anything is the syndrome of them agreeing to anything you want to tell them or ask them about ~which is only their polite way of dealing with something they dont know the answer to... Sometimes the answer to a how old is this ? sort of querry is limited to their own experience or that of their father or grandfathers time scale... How old is this Old Omani Battle Sword... 150 years, 80 years depending on who they think owned it...This is particularly when dealing with older people, who after all, had zero education and most stuff they know arrived in their knowledge base by myth legend or tradition... passed down through the ages embroidered and changed to suit the wind direction.. Your well placed note on stamps and passau wolf comments reminds me how turbulent this subject can get as I have never seen a European stamp on a flexible dancing sword except in the case of one dodgey blade with european numbers on it.. all the other stamps are Arabian. Naturally I have to sideline swords that I know have been Omani hilted such as the Solingen combo sword earlier # 229; top picture. As we cruise toward 10,000 hits on this thread I still see some interesting areas which need probing as to date; no one has pin pointed the production centre of the old or new Sayfs and work needs polishing on the weird blades at my earlier hypothesis and if there are any Schiavonas in the mixture... etc I need to get into a couple of Museums and also examine data at the Funoon centre to see if clarity on dates can be obtained. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th March 2012 at 11:07 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
14th March 2012, 04:25 AM
|
#297 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.
On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century. I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good. On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular. I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year. As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here. All the best, Jim |
|
|
|
|
14th March 2012, 05:41 PM
|
#298 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams Jim ~ You may recall the #5 post on this thread where a Topkapi sword (which may on reflection be either in the Topkapi or the Istanbul military museaum or both and being Abbasid was compared favourably with the Old Omani Battlesword in 11 categories including similarities in hilt construction but certainly not with the Islamic Arched Pommel.. nor the turned down quillons but almost everything else including blade profile. It is key to the early Ibn Julanda theory backed by the Funoon combined with the in situ frozen in time in Oman concept that the entire weapon emerges. In fact I chose the 751 date as an honorary point since it is likely that the weapon emerged sometime before and copied largely from the Abassiid and the earlier date of 620 has been considered with the first Islamic movement however as Ibn Julanda was the first Ibathi Immam 751 has been selected bearing in mind the likelihood of the hilt being virtuslly or potentially heraldic in nature which in itself would rock the foundations of heraldic symbols which insist rather on shields as being the objects of transmition. Not only is the Pommel the shape of the Abbasiid Islamic Arch..(not to be confused by later arches nor later (Islamic)battle helmets which didn't exist in the mid 8th C) but the Minarette form is also reflected in the hilt on earlier examples. I have placed several of these in private collections with the dots on the blades ... both in the blade tip and at the throat in single dots and others with a tripple dot at the riccaso. The Umayyis swords and hilts are indeed difficult to trace as none exist.. as far as I know. Work is ongoing with the term Sayf Yamaani though I get blank looks when I speak about the place near Iski, Nizwa and being the ancient old quarter called "Yemen" and likely to have been populated in about the 1st to 3rdC ad from the broken dam in The Yemen called Mehrib Dam and its corresponding exodus of many tribes to Oman (for Nizwa in particular). We also know that the entire area of Yemen southern Oman and parts of Africa at the horn were called an as one throw away term The Yemen and the African Coast at the horn is often called the Yemen on old maps.. Nizwa region fits the bill because of its prowess in Copper and Iron smelting and because of the early bellows technique employed there. Of course that is not proven and other places may be responsible like Hadramaut or even Sri Lanka with advanced blown air furnaces in use early. The very nature of an isolated religious grouping like Ibathism underscores the peculiar syndrome of this weapons isolation. Except for a small outpost of the same sect in North Africa the country was quite its own citadel and standing alone. After all; the point of the Abbasiid garrisons sent from Iraq was to primarily suppress the Omanis in that regard and the later raids by the Wahhabis was similarly inspired ( in 1865 they sacked Sur) though eventually that subsided though not without a fight. Coincidentally the seat of the Ibathi sects power remained at Nizwa down the ages.. making the conclusion perhaps easy to draw on the Sayf Yamaanis birthplace.. However, that is, as yet not proven. One area neglected so far is the huge influence exerted by merchants from the largest influential group... India. In the Indian ocean they were called Banyans and if trade were to be conducted it was the Banyans doing it, often without the see saw politics and nonsense between Oman, France and Britain which at the best of times was farcical. I have just read an extraordinary article on www.jrpeterson.net which has some very interesting background on outsider groups integrating eventually into Oman and snippets on Zuttoot, Khojas, Baluchi and other important fringe set ups with mention of sword manufacturing in one anecdote.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 15th March 2012 at 07:52 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
15th March 2012, 10:43 AM
|
#299 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Dancing Swords. Omani Sayf.
Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../w...g-trade-in-rak Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only. Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen. "All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations." Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said. Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught. The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades. Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom. They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season. Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe. Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers. Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight." There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis. For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house. Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash. The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer. RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 15th March 2012 at 10:50 AM. Reason: text alteration |
|
|
|
|
18th March 2012, 09:04 AM
|
#300 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
Quote:
Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850. Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 18th March 2012 at 09:15 AM. |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
