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Old 4th May 2009, 10:41 PM   #1
Valjhun
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Default TS marking o a german(?) 16th century blade

Can anybody tell me more about those maker marking? German?
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Old 5th May 2009, 06:19 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
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Hi Valjhun,
I just wanted you to know I have just about torn the bookmobile here apart trying to find this, but so far no luck. This was all during my rampage on the 'pappenheimer' thread, so there are books everywhere

I checked 'Wallace Collection'; Cronau; Gyngell; et al, but so far no luck. Maybe someone here can help???
Michael???

What type of blade is this on? Maybe a full picture?

Just wanted you to know the post is not being ignored.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 5th May 2009, 04:08 PM   #3
Jeff D
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Hi Valjhun

I have looked as well. I am unable to identify it yet but will keep looking. I have the suspicion this is a Solingen variation of a Toledo mark. As Jim has mentioned pictures of the entire sword or any other marks would be very useful.

All the Best
Jeff
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Old 5th May 2009, 04:45 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
Hi Valjhun

I have looked as well. I am unable to identify it yet but will keep looking. I have the suspicion this is a Solingen variation of a Toledo mark. As Jim has mentioned pictures of the entire sword or any other marks would be very useful.

All the Best
Jeff



Hi Jeff,
Again, I'm really glad to see you here. You've always been a true bloodhound at markings...and if you cant find it......we got trouble!

Good suggestion on Solingen interpretation, as we know they copied many markings and of course many from Toledo. One clue was always misspelling and transliteration. It seems the initials should be reversed.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 5th May 2009, 05:52 PM   #5
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Hello,

All the Original 2 character Toledo marks have the name Character above the Town character (T for Toledo as the lowest character).
(This is also copied by Wolfgang Stantler, Muenchen).

your mark can be the mark of Clemens Tesche Solingen 17thC or Wilhelm Tesche Solingen early 17thC, it is published that they both have copied Toledo marks (Alonso de Sahagun, S under crown, Tomas de Ayala ST under crown).
The name of the maker T(esche) above the town mark S(olingen) makes sense if they copied well.


I think the type of the hilt and blade can give more outcome, can you place a
picture in this thread?

best regards

Last edited by cornelistromp : 5th May 2009 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 6th May 2009, 01:44 AM   #6
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Here it is.

Is that the so called muenchen town watch sword?
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Old 6th May 2009, 07:44 AM   #7
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HI,

100% a German Sword, those swords are also made in other German cities,
I think stantler initiated those type end of 16thC in Munich.
your sword is a (later) variation of the town watch sword.
the pommel is atypical for what you would expect at the Munich town watch sword and the sword can be dated a bit later 1625-1640.

(so difficult to proof but it can be made by Tesche Solingen as mentioned in my previous reply, .....................it also can be not)

I found a Town watch sword for your reference with the characters reversed (as the Toledo Tomas de Ayala and Wolfgang Stantler marks)

regards from Holland
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Old 6th May 2009, 09:05 PM   #8
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Very interesting, and nice examples.
I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparantly a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning.

Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time?

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 6th May 2009, 10:46 PM   #9
fernando
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Maybe this is time to post some Toledo swordmakers marks in the sticky thread 'Early makers trade marks'.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ted=1#post83338
I don't think they were already included there.
Fernando
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Old 7th May 2009, 08:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Very interesting, and nice examples.
I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparently a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning.

Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time?

All best regards,
Jim


Hi Jim,
yes correct.
in the middle ages every civilian had to take part in defending the cities.
In the 13thC came the military use of the bow and arrow. to use the bow and arrow special skills were needed. the people united themselves in "schuttersgilden" to practice with the hand and foot bow. at the end of the 14thC general rules were made and duties and rights were described by the city government. those schuttersgilden were often "used"
by the defending of the Dutch cities because of their shooting skills.
on the other hand they were very difficult to control them.
It was an Honor to be selected as a member of those schuttersgilden and the members were from the upper class and they financed their own expensive weapons. The dutch schutters paintings of Rotius (1650, Alkmaar) show already very "new for that period and progressive " small sword models!!!
after 1580 the gildes were organized after a military model.
Rembrandt's night watch the compagnie of Frans Banning Cocq was painted in 1642. The tasks/power of the schutters was already reduced to control the streets in the evening and nights. Due to frequent misbehaviors of those schutters during the night duty all the tasks were taken from them a bit later.
I understood the German Munich Town guards/watch were formed after a military model and were all provided with the same armour and a Stantler type town watch sword/rapier. Maybe Michael can tell us more about this.

for this sword type see the last auction of
http://www.hermann-historica.com/

lot 3677

best regards
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Old 14th May 2009, 03:21 PM   #11
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6.500 + 23% buyers commision???

WTF???

I hadn't realise, that it has such a value! WOW!

Anybody interested?
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Old 17th May 2009, 11:19 PM   #12
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Gents, many thanks to all of you, especially to cornelistromp, for your research and comments.

Having that gem in my collection, I've became somehow interested in that field. Can you advise with some literature?

Thank you!

Here are the rest of the pics:
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Old 31st May 2009, 06:33 PM   #13
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thanks!

please see for the Stantler type town sword the coming auction of .

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalog...0609/page4.html

112
A GERMAN SWEPT-HILT RAPIER, CIRCA 1600

with sharply tapering blade of diamond section, tapering ricasso stamped with a mark, probably the letters ST arranged vertically beneath a crown for Wolfgang Stantler (worn), steel hilt of flattened rounded bars, comprising down-curved forward-canted quillon with flattened globular pierced terminal (repairs), knuckle-guard with flattened globular terminal, bifurcated outer ring-guard joining the arms of the hilt at the base, lower ring-guard, trifurcated inner guard, and flattened barrel-shaped pommel (the hilt cleaned and with areas of pitting), and later grip bound with plaited silver wire and 'Turk's heads'

91cm; 35 7/8in blade

This sword belongs to the well known group of rapiers associated with the Munich Town Guard. The present example varies in the use of an s-shaped as opposed to curved bar joining the outer ring to the lower ring-guard. Others are preserved in the Royal Armouries, Leeds, the Musée Royal de l'Armée et d'Histoire Militaire, Brussels, and the Wallace Collection. Another example from this group was sold Sotheby's Olympia, 29th June 2005, lot 34 (£14,400, including premium). For a discussion of this group see A.V.B. Norman 1980, pp.127-129.
Estimate: 5000-7000
Nil

best regards
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