After Maker/retailer Info: 1822/45 Pattern Sabre by Manders & Allender Liverpool

Atlantia · 9th October 2011, 04:01 PM

Bit late for me but something about this one appealed to me.
Can anyone help with info on the maker?
I think this sword is the later 1845 Wilkinson type fullered blade version of the 1822, Infantry officers?
Blade etched: Manders & Allender Liverpool, Spine is stamped '502'.
I've not heard fo the maker before and a search isn't seeming to turn up much info.
Hoping the 502 might be tracable as well, hoping to definatively date the sword.

Thanks
Gene.

laEspadaAncha · 9th October 2011, 07:20 PM

Hi Gene,

AFAIK, the design cast into the backstrap is consistent with the P1845...

Question though - I see a break in the ribbon bar of the hilt closest to the lens (in the 2nd photo). Is there a break in the bar, or does the sword have a folding counter guard? IIRC, the folding guard was dispensed with in the P1845...

Is the portepee original to the sword?

Atlantia · 9th October 2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Gene,

AFAIK, the design cast into the backstrap is consistent with the P1845...

Question though - I see a break in the ribbon bar of the hilt closest to the lens (in the 2nd photo). Is there a break in the bar, or does the sword have a folding counter guard? IIRC, the folding guard was dispensed with in the P1845...

Is the portepee original to the sword?

Hi buddy

It has the folding part of the guard that I'm told was apparently discontinued in 1854.
So I'm told that this example dates to 1845-1854.
I've found some info on the retailer, I'm really hoping to find something on the spine stamp.
I believe that the portepee/sword knot is original, it certainly came to me with it.

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2011, 08:54 PM

I am not familiar with this retailer, however I wanted to note that in about this time period, another instance of numbers stamped on the blade spine. I have a Reeves M1821 light cavalry sabre stamped with Reeves name and the number 111 in bold numbers. It has been some time since I have seen the sword, but these stamps are in the usual location near the forte on blade spine. I always thought this might be unit numbers perhaps for contract for specific number of swords. As the M1821 had a lag in production from 1821 to 1829 I thought perhaps this one might have been an interim run production. I cannot recall details on that research but seemed worthy of note. I have not seen other makers adding numbers to thier name stamp, nor for that matter numbered blades (other obviously than Wilkinson who applied this practice later in around late 1850s? and onky on officers swords).

Reeves was a high profile and innovative maker who produced the patent tang used on the M1853 cavalry sabre, the first that universally was designed for both light and heavy cavalry in English swords.

Im not sure how this might apply to the number here, but as always look forward to other views and suggestions.

Atlantia · 9th October 2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not familiar with this retailer, however I wanted to note that in about this time period, another instance of numbers stamped on the blade spine. I have a Reeves M1821 light cavalry sabre stamped with Reeves name and the number 111 in bold numbers. It has been some time since I have seen the sword, but these stamps are in the usual location near the forte on blade spine. I always thought this might be unit numbers perhaps for contract for specific number of swords. As the M1821 had a lag in production from 1821 to 1829 I thought perhaps this one might have been an interim run production. I cannot recall details on that research but seemed worthy of note. I have not seen other makers adding numbers to thier name stamp, nor for that matter numbered blades (other obviously than Wilkinson who applied this practice later in around late 1850s? and onky on officers swords).

Reeves was a high profile and innovative maker who produced the patent tang used on the M1853 cavalry sabre, the first that universally was designed for both light and heavy cavalry in English swords.

Im not sure how this might apply to the number here, but as always look forward to other views and suggestions.

Hi mate,

I was wondering if the number on the spine in this case was just an inventory number for the retailers records.
I was hoping that somewhere these records might still exist and have coresponding names of buyers attached.....

Seems increasingly unlikely.

Norman McCormick · 9th October 2011, 10:24 PM

Hi Gene,
The 1845~1854 dates can be a wee bit fluid as although the patterns were introduced in those dates the practicalities meant that the pattern cutoffs were not absolute. If that is a brass scabbard I have always thought that it indicated it belonged to an officer of field rank i.e. Major and above. Nice sword.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi mate,

I was wondering if the number on the spine in this case was just an inventory number for the retailers records.
I was hoping that somewhere these records might still exist and have coresponding names of buyers attached.....

Seems increasingly unlikely.

The point I was alluding to is that perhaps the numbers in this location on blade might be a number to tally a unit of a set number ordered used by a maker completing that order. Admittedly this seems a bit tenuous as it does not seem such accounting would be necessary, but suggested just the same.
clearly the number has some record oriented purpose, but I dont think retailers would have done so.....as mentioned, Wilkinson is the only maker I am aware of who numbered and recorded sales to officers. I think they still have records on file and Robert Wilkinson has access to files. I think he is likely the best source to find out about this retailer and more detail, unfortunately he is on another forum.

Atlantia · 10th October 2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The point I was alluding to is that perhaps the numbers in this location on blade might be a number to tally a unit of a set number ordered used by a maker completing that order. Admittedly this seems a bit tenuous as it does not seem such accounting would be necessary, but suggested just the same.
clearly the number has some record oriented purpose, but I dont think retailers would have done so.....as mentioned, Wilkinson is the only maker I am aware of who numbered and recorded sales to officers. I think they still have records on file and Robert Wilkinson has access to files. I think he is likely the best source to find out about this retailer and more detail, unfortunately he is on another forum.

Hi Jim,
Sorry, I hadn't thought of that. What a good idea! I just hate when there are undeciphered numbers like this.

I've posted it... where Robert frequents, hopfully he can help.

I've oiled the blade in readiness to clean the tiny amount of rust-dust thats formed.
Sadly some plank has managed to get brasso in the ray-skin, getting that off is going to be.... 'fun'.

Best
Gene

katana · 10th October 2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Sadly some plank has managed to get brasso in the ray-skin, getting that off is going to be.... 'fun'.

Best
Gene

Hiya Mate

,
my advice, clean using a soft toothbrush with some soapy water (washing up liquid) , do not over wet, dry/dab with kitchen paper. Re-do as necessary..rinse with clean water...once completely clean and dry, apply some olive oil to re-vitalise the ray-skin.

All the best
David

Atlantia · 10th October 2011, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
The 1845~1854 dates can be a wee bit fluid as although the patterns were introduced in those dates the practicalities meant that the pattern cutoffs were not absolute. If that is a brass scabbard I have always thought that it indicated it belonged to an officer of field rank i.e. Major and above. Nice sword.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hiya Norman,

An officer of field rank would be great! Thaks for the info.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 10th October 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hiya Mate

,
my advice, clean using a soft toothbrush with some soapy water (washing up liquid) , do not over wet, dry/dab with kitchen paper. Re-do as necessary..rinse with clean water...once completely clean and dry, apply some olive oil to re-vitalise the ray-skin.

All the best
David

Hi David

Thanks for the tips, is olive oil the recommended 'food' for this stuff then?

Best
Gene

katana · 10th October 2011, 07:03 PM

Hi Gene,
olive oil was recommended to me for 'shagreen'. I had 2 layers of paint on one of mine

I had no option but to use 'paint stripper' ....the chemical reaction on the skin had dried it a little and the olive oil seems to work well in 'moisturising' the shagreen. I put it on, allowed it to absorb for a while and used tissue to remove the excess.

David

Atlantia · 2nd November 2011, 11:40 PM

David,

I cleaned the ray-skin with a toothbrush as you suggested.
I started with just dampening it then tried some dilute ispropol alcohol.
Complete success! Looks fantastic now.
Thanks mate

The stuff is suprisingly sturdy!

I've had the blade oiled in readiness for cleaning the minor rust dust and small problem areas by the hilt.

If anyone has any suggestions for cleaning the etched blade then I'm all ears?

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 20th December 2011, 09:23 PM

As you might have read in this thread I have managed an effective cleaning of the blade. I have also straightened the knuckle bow (it's not perfect but it's good enough, and without so much as a single microfracture!). I've replaced the leather washer and cleaned the fish-skin. I think the results are very good.

9th October 2011, 04:01 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	After Maker/retailer Info: 1822/45 Pattern Sabre by Manders & Allender Liverpool Bit late for me but something about this one appealed to me. Can anyone help with info on the maker? I think this sword is the later 1845 Wilkinson type fullered blade version of the 1822, Infantry officers? Blade etched: Manders & Allender Liverpool, Spine is stamped '502'. I've not heard fo the maker before and a search isn't seeming to turn up much info. Hoping the 502 might be tracable as well, hoping to definatively date the sword. Thanks Gene. Attached Images

20th December 2011, 09:23 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	As you might have read in this thread I have managed an effective cleaning of the blade. I have also straightened the knuckle bow (it's not perfect but it's good enough, and without so much as a single microfracture!). I've replaced the leather washer and cleaned the fish-skin. I think the results are very good. Attached Images

9th October 2011, 07:20 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Gene, AFAIK, the design cast into the backstrap is consistent with the P1845... Question though - I see a break in the ribbon bar of the hilt closest to the lens (in the 2nd photo). Is there a break in the bar, or does the sword have a folding counter guard? IIRC, the folding guard was dispensed with in the P1845... Is the portepee original to the sword?

9th October 2011, 08:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I am not familiar with this retailer, however I wanted to note that in about this time period, another instance of numbers stamped on the blade spine. I have a Reeves M1821 light cavalry sabre stamped with Reeves name and the number 111 in bold numbers. It has been some time since I have seen the sword, but these stamps are in the usual location near the forte on blade spine. I always thought this might be unit numbers perhaps for contract for specific number of swords. As the M1821 had a lag in production from 1821 to 1829 I thought perhaps this one might have been an interim run production. I cannot recall details on that research but seemed worthy of note. I have not seen other makers adding numbers to thier name stamp, nor for that matter numbered blades (other obviously than Wilkinson who applied this practice later in around late 1850s? and onky on officers swords). Reeves was a high profile and innovative maker who produced the patent tang used on the M1853 cavalry sabre, the first that universally was designed for both light and heavy cavalry in English swords. Im not sure how this might apply to the number here, but as always look forward to other views and suggestions.

9th October 2011, 10:24 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gene, The 1845~1854 dates can be a wee bit fluid as although the patterns were introduced in those dates the practicalities meant that the pattern cutoffs were not absolute. If that is a brass scabbard I have always thought that it indicated it belonged to an officer of field rank i.e. Major and above. Nice sword. My Regards, Norman.

10th October 2011, 07:03 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gene, olive oil was recommended to me for 'shagreen'. I had 2 layers of paint on one of mine I had no option but to use 'paint stripper' ....the chemical reaction on the skin had dried it a little and the olive oil seems to work well in 'moisturising' the shagreen. I put it on, allowed it to absorb for a while and used tissue to remove the excess. David

2nd November 2011, 11:40 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	David, I cleaned the ray-skin with a toothbrush as you suggested. I started with just dampening it then tried some dilute ispropol alcohol. Complete success! Looks fantastic now. Thanks mate The stuff is suprisingly sturdy! I've had the blade oiled in readiness for cleaning the minor rust dust and small problem areas by the hilt. If anyone has any suggestions for cleaning the etched blade then I'm all ears? Best Gene