Strange club? solomon? samoa? amazon?

fireiceviper · 21st July 2015, 10:51 PM

Purchased a strange looking club from ebay today (sold as Pacific Northwest 16.75 inch/42.5 cm), it hasn't arrived yet but when it does i can post more information.

When i first saw it, it felt Solomon island'ish mostly because of the shape and wood type(palm). then it started to have a hint of amazon war club with the drawings on there. (although they use a different type of wood mostly).

Now I'm starting to think the shape is more Samoan, because of the square shape...

The club does not look very old to me, but not like the souvenirs of recent times..perhaps around ww2... maybe a retro souvenir?

I'm just not finding anything similar with the painted shapes and overal shape of the item?

Anyone seen anything similar?

VANDOO · 22nd July 2015, 02:32 PM

THESE SMALL CLUBS ARE DIFFICULT TO PIN DOWN AS TO LOCATION. WE GENERALLY TEND TO SAY SOLOMON ISLANDS FOR THESE BUT I SUSPECT THEY ARE WIDE SPREAD THRU-OUT THE SOUTH PACIFIC. THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSE AND FOR THRUSTING AS WELL AS STRIKING BLOWS. THE DESIGNS ARE UNUSUAL ON THIS EXAMPLE AND I THINK DO PLACE IT AROUND WW2 ERA WITH NON- TRIBAL, NON-TRADITIONAL DESIGNS. THESE DESIGNS MAY HAVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES ESPECIALLY THE DESIGN SIMILAR TO THE GERMAN SYMBOL. A NICE AND UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF THE FORM.

fireiceviper · 22nd July 2015, 08:21 PM

The Pommel and palm wood was what first made me think of the Solomon islands but the shape is so very different from the normal ones...even way after ww2... this is more cube shaped instead of flat/leaf/diamond/ shaped...

The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else..

Do you have a link to anything similar?

David · 22nd July 2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireiceviper

The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else..

The swastika is a very ancient symbol with a long history of positive application throughout the world, from India to the Americas. It is generally a symbol of solar power, whirling energies, the four directions, etc. and is a sign of good luck in many cultures. What is carved on this club is most definitely a swastika, though it is also NOT a Nazi swastika.

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2015, 09:14 PM

This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2015, 09:21 PM

The more I look at it I am starting to see more Amazon than Solomons. I think a pictorial case could be made with comparable examples. I can post a few perhaps tomorrow.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd July 2015, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

Tim & Barry

You guys have a very good handle on these types of weapons and very good reference points in literature and imagery...perhaps, and just a long shot, but is it worth comparing the weaving like motifs on the club in question to Solomon Island and South American examples which retain their original woven fibres? And perhaps the engraved tattoo deigns native to each and other regions too?

Just a thought?

Gavin

colin henshaw · 29th July 2015, 02:46 PM

With the angular form and decorations, it has much more of a South American "look" to me. There was a short pointed club used as a stabbing weapon in Guyana/Guiana, but I don't think it had a raised circular bit to the end like that ?

fireiceviper · 29th July 2015, 07:27 PM

I'm leaning towards Solomon too right now (although there is nothing similar in the dutch museum databases). Perhaps a kid club?

I have found some of the Guyana area small wood dagger type clubs, none are made of this wood and are much less angular, could be that they just don't have this type (those are all made of hardwood, this still appears to me as a relatively soft palm wood).

But south/central America is a huge place so there could be another region where they use these clubs all the time ( the dutch museums mostly focus on guyana/surinam because it was an ex colony)

As for function:
I have no doubt you could stab someone with it, or club him. but to me in hand it feels like its made for throwing (or for tourists

)

The carving with the black inlay is still the odd thing on this club, normal inlay is white (lime) (the exception to this is Solomon tourist clubs and amazonian clubs)

I've included some pictures of tourist Solomon war clubs and amazonian clubs.

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2015, 08:56 PM

I am going for South America. I can only see a dagger of Amerindian form. It just does not look like a miniature supi club.

fireiceviper · 31st July 2015, 12:28 PM

Update:

A couple of people in the Facebook group about tribal weapons noticed that the paterns on the club are similar too the ones used on Santa Cruz island (solomon group).

And i agree! As for a function still no clue, too small for a normal dance paddle from that region ... could be one for children

i've included some examples of the tapa and a pdf (sorry pdf to big i made it a link ) with some more information.

PDF

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2015, 01:41 PM

Just when I was about to change my mind and agree with you. I thought perhaps one could see design similarities with this South American {Guyana} club. The shape is kind of related just the round pommel hints at the Solomons.

21st July 2015, 10:51 PM	#1
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Strange club? solomon? samoa? amazon? Purchased a strange looking club from ebay today (sold as Pacific Northwest 16.75 inch/42.5 cm), it hasn't arrived yet but when it does i can post more information. When i first saw it, it felt Solomon island'ish mostly because of the shape and wood type(palm). then it started to have a hint of amazon war club with the drawings on there. (although they use a different type of wood mostly). Now I'm starting to think the shape is more Samoan, because of the square shape... The club does not look very old to me, but not like the souvenirs of recent times..perhaps around ww2... maybe a retro souvenir? I'm just not finding anything similar with the painted shapes and overal shape of the item? Anyone seen anything similar? Attached Images

29th July 2015, 07:27 PM	#9
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	I'm leaning towards Solomon too right now (although there is nothing similar in the dutch museum databases). Perhaps a kid club? I have found some of the Guyana area small wood dagger type clubs, none are made of this wood and are much less angular, could be that they just don't have this type (those are all made of hardwood, this still appears to me as a relatively soft palm wood). But south/central America is a huge place so there could be another region where they use these clubs all the time ( the dutch museums mostly focus on guyana/surinam because it was an ex colony) As for function: I have no doubt you could stab someone with it, or club him. but to me in hand it feels like its made for throwing (or for tourists ) The carving with the black inlay is still the odd thing on this club, normal inlay is white (lime) (the exception to this is Solomon tourist clubs and amazonian clubs) I've included some pictures of tourist Solomon war clubs and amazonian clubs. Attached Images

31st July 2015, 12:28 PM	#11
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	Update: A couple of people in the Facebook group about tribal weapons noticed that the paterns on the club are similar too the ones used on Santa Cruz island (solomon group). And i agree! As for a function still no clue, too small for a normal dance paddle from that region ... could be one for children i've included some examples of the tapa and a pdf (sorry pdf to big i made it a link ) with some more information. PDF Attached Images

31st July 2015, 01:41 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Just when I was about to change my mind and agree with you. I thought perhaps one could see design similarities with this South American {Guyana} club. The shape is kind of related just the round pommel hints at the Solomons. Attached Images

22nd July 2015, 02:32 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THESE SMALL CLUBS ARE DIFFICULT TO PIN DOWN AS TO LOCATION. WE GENERALLY TEND TO SAY SOLOMON ISLANDS FOR THESE BUT I SUSPECT THEY ARE WIDE SPREAD THRU-OUT THE SOUTH PACIFIC. THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSE AND FOR THRUSTING AS WELL AS STRIKING BLOWS. THE DESIGNS ARE UNUSUAL ON THIS EXAMPLE AND I THINK DO PLACE IT AROUND WW2 ERA WITH NON- TRIBAL, NON-TRADITIONAL DESIGNS. THESE DESIGNS MAY HAVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES ESPECIALLY THE DESIGN SIMILAR TO THE GERMAN SYMBOL. A NICE AND UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF THE FORM.

22nd July 2015, 08:21 PM	#3
fireiceviper Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 87	The Pommel and palm wood was what first made me think of the Solomon islands but the shape is so very different from the normal ones...even way after ww2... this is more cube shaped instead of flat/leaf/diamond/ shaped... The black paint is still a mystery to me... i kind-of see the resemblance to the Nazi logo, but its not quite there... i mean a swastika is really easy to draw... almost impossible to not get right... so it really could mean something else.. Do you have a link to anything similar?

22nd July 2015, 09:14 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This club looks a lot better than the many ww2 souvenir short supi Solomon Island club. Although not old looking it does seem to have a patina from frequent handling. Like you My first thoughts were the Solomons. However there is something Amazon about it too. I am finding the Amazon a great source for clubs and an area where forms are yet to be fully appreciated and catalogued. One of the main appeal for the right type of Amazon club is that they do not have to be old to be the " real thing " in a way that we as collectors understand. For the time being I still favour the Solomons. Perhaps daylight pictures might help? The pommel does not suggest Amazon to me.

22nd July 2015, 09:21 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The more I look at it I am starting to see more Amazon than Solomons. I think a pictorial case could be made with comparable examples. I can post a few perhaps tomorrow.

29th July 2015, 02:46 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	With the angular form and decorations, it has much more of a South American "look" to me. There was a short pointed club used as a stabbing weapon in Guyana/Guiana, but I don't think it had a raised circular bit to the end like that ?

29th July 2015, 08:56 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am going for South America. I can only see a dagger of Amerindian form. It just does not look like a miniature supi club.