Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th June 2015, 05:59 PM   #1
Peter Dekker
Member
 
Peter Dekker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands
Posts: 63
Default Unusual Chinese sword

Hello guys, it's been a while!

I wanted to share with you guys a recent acquisition. It follows the format of regular Chinese hudiedao, with D-shaped knucklebrow and a hook at the back of the blade, and is also of roughly the same size.

The major departure from the standard design of such swords is the symmetrical, leaf-shaped, fully double edged blade on this one where a wedge-shaped single-edge blade is the norm. Other interesting differences from Chinese hudiedao include a slightly forward curving handle, chiseled decoration on the blade, and the hook being shaped like a little dragon head.

It is most likely of tribal origin, loosely based on equipment by the Han Chinese. That's pretty much everything I know about it, I haven't seen anything similar.

Perhaps the decoration could give away which culture produced it. Anyone?

(See pictures attached. In recent polish by Philip Tom, showing some of the laminations in the steel.)
Attached Images
      
Peter Dekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2015, 06:02 PM   #2
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

I think it's Filipino, Chinese influenced for sure .
What makes me think so is the banding at the forte and the decoration which strikes me as very Okir-like .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2015, 07:31 PM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

I have had similar thoughts without seeing Rick's comment.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2015, 07:37 PM   #4
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,083
Default

I agree with the consensus! I think it is Filipino. The lamination is typical for there, the banding at the block type forte, and I think the quillon is a snake or naga versus a dragon. The grip and ferrule are even quite Filipino. I bet we can find some similar blades in prior posts with similar hilts.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2015, 08:37 PM   #5
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Yes definitely Filipino. A wonderful piece and a great addition to your collection. When you get tired of looking at it you can send it my way. If this were listed on a certain online auction it would most likely be described as a Civil War D-guard bowie.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2015, 08:53 PM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

I'm curious what Philip said on this, he knows these weapons backward and forward
Whatever the case, its fascinating to see these hudeidao filtered into other cultures as a number of amazing examples Gav has shown over the years.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 02:13 AM   #7
Timo Nieminen
Member
 
Timo Nieminen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 422
Default

Reminds me of this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19754
Timo Nieminen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 03:01 AM   #8
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen
Yeah, that's the one that came immediately to mind for me too .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 07:53 AM   #9
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

And here is one I have in my collection with a blade profile and chisel work (though a little more elaborate) that is somewhat similar to Peter's example, but with a medial ridge on both sides of the blade more like Spunjar's example shown in the link. Even though Spunjar's and my own example do not show any signs of Chinese influence they do show some similarity in overall style.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Robert; 29th June 2015 at 08:07 AM.
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 09:51 AM   #10
Peter Dekker
Member
 
Peter Dekker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands
Posts: 63
Default

Thanks for sharing guys, very interesting! That horn handle is beautiful.

Although I'm not entirely convinced mine is filipino, it most certainly shows a strong relationship to these with the chiseled forte and the leaf shaped blade.

More Sinified aspects of mine is the straighter shape and the way it builds up width from the forte, giving it more of a Chinese "feel" to it. Compare that effect to, for example, these:



Chiseled engravings on blades, were also quite common (and often floral) in Vietnam.

All considering, we might assess it originated somewhere around the South China sea area, sharing shores with South China, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

Would you guys agree?
Peter Dekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 10:09 AM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dekker
All considering, we might assess it originated somewhere around the South China sea area, sharing shores with South China, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

Would you guys agree?
Hello Peter,

sorry, no, I don't agree. It's in my opinion clearly a Luzon piece, the way how the guard is attached in up from the horn hilt, the carved ricasso at the blade and the lamination of the blade let me be very sure.

What told you Philip Tom about this piece?

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 10:44 AM   #12
Timo Nieminen
Member
 
Timo Nieminen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 422
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dekker
All considering, we might assess it originated somewhere around the South China sea area, sharing shores with South China, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

Would you guys agree?
The blade looks very Philippines, and not Chinese at all. The hilt looks Chinese to me.

Here is a photo of a sword I thought looked quite Chinese. The grip has a similar shape to yours (though the guard differs). It came with a bunch of Indonesian blades, and might be Indonesian like its box-mates.
Attached Images
 
Timo Nieminen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 04:23 PM   #13
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 966
Default

Like most so far, I vote Philippines.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2015, 04:38 PM   #14
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Philippines, with Spanish colonial influence (the quillon with the snake similar to those found on espadas)-
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2015, 06:58 AM   #15
Peter Dekker
Member
 
Peter Dekker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands
Posts: 63
Default

Thanks guys!

Sajen, I see what you mean with the Luzon attribution. In internet search came up with quite a few of them with such a long brass ferrule. I couldn't find any with a complete straight and symmetrical blade like mine. Is this more unusual in this sphere?

Mine seems more Chinese-influenced than most I'm coming across, but you guys have convinced me it's probably made elsewhere.

Philip pointed out how the quillon on the back is too close to the blade for Chinese standards. In China they were used to flip the blade around so they could strike with the handle. I thought perhaps this was because you don't want to flip a double edged blade, because the back edge will then be next to your forearm. But I see many filipino blades that have the same, a thin quillon pretty close to the blade.

Thanks for your help!

Last edited by Peter Dekker; 30th June 2015 at 07:19 AM.
Peter Dekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.