artificially aged keris

Buntel Mayit · 28th January 2007, 04:58 PM

Dear keris aficionados,

I would like to know the methods/techniques on how to spotting artificially aged keris blade? The answers of this question are very important since there are advanced methods to make newly made keris blades look old.

Regards.

David · 28th January 2007, 06:47 PM

Welcome to the forum Buntel Mayit. I have very mixed feelings about having such a discussion on the forum. It is certainly true that techniques for the aging of keris have gotten very good in recent years and it makes proper assessment of some keris extremely difficult. However, by discussing what we are able to see as telltale signs of artificial aging we are only giving these people clues as to how to make this process even harder to spot.
It should also be noted that AFAIK, keris are not necessarily aged in order to create fakes to fool people. This look is the current taste in Jawa i believe and customers of new blades often want their blades to have a certain aged look. It is only when a seller claims one of these aged keris to have real age that we can call them fakes or counterfeits.

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2007, 09:06 PM

I understand what you're saying here David, but I truly believe this is misplaced caution.

As you point out, local buyers of recent keris , in Jawa, mostly want a certain look to their recent keris, so the keris are artificially aged to give the buyers what they want.

You could liken this to "make-up".

Is it even remotely possible that one would mistake a 50 year old lady wearing make-up, for an 18 year old girl?

The same applies in reverse with a keris. However, just as we all understand the indicators that tell us the difference between a 50 year old lady, and an 18 year old girl, so must we understand the indicators that tell us whether a keris is recent, or has some age.

One must learn to look past the "make-up" of the blade and base judgement upon other factors.

Bear this in mind also:- at the market level where most of us collect, the impact on value of a blade, whether presented as "old", or "recent", is very slight, if it exists at all. It pretty much comes down to whether an individual collector prefers an aged look, or smooth finish---a la Bali.

Where false aging can have an impact is at the market level where we talk thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, not hundreds of dollars. At that level, if a forger wishes to decieve, he will, and it is unlikely that anybody will detect his forgery. The most well known collectors, the really famous names have all been decieved at some time. Nobody will escape a determined and clever forger.

However, it is simply not worth the effort for these talented thieves to waste their time at the market level where most of us collect. At the level where we buy, a keris is still going to be worth about the same, whether it is old or new. Individually we might be a little disappointed if we buy something as old, and later find that it is recent, but its still going to be worth about the same amount of money.

We all know about buying the keris, not the story, and this artificial age thing falls into the same category. If you don't like the keris, irrespective of whether it is supposed to be old or recent, don't buy it.

However, having said all of that, I personally find that it is impossible for me to give pointers on how to identify with any certainty a blade that has been deliberately aged, based only upon the appearance of the surface of the material.

Buntel Mayit · 29th January 2007, 04:53 AM

Thank you David and Maisey for your reply.

It is right that there is demand from buyers themselves who want their new keris looks old. It cannot be regarded as a negative practice as long as the buyers know that they buy or want artificially aged keris. On keris trade, unfortunately, this kind of practice is often carried out by the sellers without proper disclosure. In other words, it is an intended negative practice to deceive the buyers in order to gain big profit.

Based on such condition on keris trade, I think we (newcomers) need basic knowledge from keris experts here so that we can identify the characteristics of artificially aged blade. I understand that information on this matter may lead to dilemma since it can also be used by the makers/forgers to improve their techniques.

Regards.

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2007, 06:31 AM

As I remarked in my earlier post, I personally cannot divorce the recognition of artificial aging from appraisal of the blade as a whole. In other words I need to look at form, material, method of manufacture, craftsmanship, the indicators that allow classification of a blade in accordance with tangguh, overall condition, and lastly I might pay a little attention to the blade surface.

If one wishes to identify falsely aged blades with relative certainty, one needs first to learn how to appraise and classify a keris. One cannot just look at a blade surface and based on the erosion pattern of the metal declare that the blade is, or is not, artificially aged.

Buntel Mayit · 29th January 2007, 07:59 AM

Thank you Mr Maisey.

It seems that it is absolutely not easy to spotting artificially aged blades. It takes enormous knowledge on keris which must be learned seriously and takes years.
Does it necessarily mean that one should at least has a basic understanding on classic guide such as Mor-Ja-Si-Rap-Ngun plus Tangguh before judging a blade whether it is real old or artificial?

Regards.

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2007, 10:48 AM

Its probably not quite so simple as that.

In my experience the bulk of keris collectors are mostly able to identify current era blades of Madura origin, whether actually made in Madura, or as a part of the current Madura tradition. Thus, if one of these blades is given the common low quality age treatment, I would guess that most collectors would identify exactly what the origin of the blade was , and that it had been treated to try to make it look old.

And the vast bulk of these collectors have very, very little knowledge of how to apply the indicators of tangguh, or how to apply traditional Javanese standards.Still, they will identify a Madura blade falsely aged and presented as "old", probably nine times out of ten.

Where these collectors will fail to identify a falsely presented blade is where a serious forger has applied his skill to prepare a blade that will sell for big money.

However, the average collector based outside Jawa need not worry too much about this, because these collectors are not the target of the serious forger. The serious forger does not waste his talent on something that might sell for a few hundred dollars. He concentrates on the upper level market where keris change hands for values equivalent to motor vehicles and houses.

Yes, certainly there are some people with rather slight integrity who do apply their talents in the lower market areas, but even when they present something as being other than what it is, the amounts of money involved are not great and whether the falsely presented item is genuinely old , or falsely presented as such, it is still worth around about the same amount of money. The sad part of all this is that this false presentation by persons of a less than honest character damages the entire field of keris interest, and can be very discouraging for a newcomer. The only protection is to seek out somebody who does understand the keris and try to learn from that person.

For a new collector it is probably best to forget all about age, and collect on the basis of personal preference. Collect what appeals to you, not what somebody else tries to influence you to collect. The best approach of all could be to not collect at all until you have learnt at least a little bit about what makes a keris desireable.

But if you must collect, just remember that all education costs money.

28th January 2007, 04:58 PM	#1
Buntel Mayit Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	artificially aged keris Dear keris aficionados, I would like to know the methods/techniques on how to spotting artificially aged keris blade? The answers of this question are very important since there are advanced methods to make newly made keris blades look old. Regards.

28th January 2007, 06:47 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Welcome to the forum Buntel Mayit. I have very mixed feelings about having such a discussion on the forum. It is certainly true that techniques for the aging of keris have gotten very good in recent years and it makes proper assessment of some keris extremely difficult. However, by discussing what we are able to see as telltale signs of artificial aging we are only giving these people clues as to how to make this process even harder to spot. It should also be noted that AFAIK, keris are not necessarily aged in order to create fakes to fool people. This look is the current taste in Jawa i believe and customers of new blades often want their blades to have a certain aged look. It is only when a seller claims one of these aged keris to have real age that we can call them fakes or counterfeits.

28th January 2007, 09:06 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I understand what you're saying here David, but I truly believe this is misplaced caution. As you point out, local buyers of recent keris , in Jawa, mostly want a certain look to their recent keris, so the keris are artificially aged to give the buyers what they want. You could liken this to "make-up". Is it even remotely possible that one would mistake a 50 year old lady wearing make-up, for an 18 year old girl? The same applies in reverse with a keris. However, just as we all understand the indicators that tell us the difference between a 50 year old lady, and an 18 year old girl, so must we understand the indicators that tell us whether a keris is recent, or has some age. One must learn to look past the "make-up" of the blade and base judgement upon other factors. Bear this in mind also:- at the market level where most of us collect, the impact on value of a blade, whether presented as "old", or "recent", is very slight, if it exists at all. It pretty much comes down to whether an individual collector prefers an aged look, or smooth finish---a la Bali. Where false aging can have an impact is at the market level where we talk thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, not hundreds of dollars. At that level, if a forger wishes to decieve, he will, and it is unlikely that anybody will detect his forgery. The most well known collectors, the really famous names have all been decieved at some time. Nobody will escape a determined and clever forger. However, it is simply not worth the effort for these talented thieves to waste their time at the market level where most of us collect. At the level where we buy, a keris is still going to be worth about the same, whether it is old or new. Individually we might be a little disappointed if we buy something as old, and later find that it is recent, but its still going to be worth about the same amount of money. We all know about buying the keris, not the story, and this artificial age thing falls into the same category. If you don't like the keris, irrespective of whether it is supposed to be old or recent, don't buy it. However, having said all of that, I personally find that it is impossible for me to give pointers on how to identify with any certainty a blade that has been deliberately aged, based only upon the appearance of the surface of the material.

29th January 2007, 04:53 AM	#4
Buntel Mayit Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you David and Maisey for your reply. It is right that there is demand from buyers themselves who want their new keris looks old. It cannot be regarded as a negative practice as long as the buyers know that they buy or want artificially aged keris. On keris trade, unfortunately, this kind of practice is often carried out by the sellers without proper disclosure. In other words, it is an intended negative practice to deceive the buyers in order to gain big profit. Based on such condition on keris trade, I think we (newcomers) need basic knowledge from keris experts here so that we can identify the characteristics of artificially aged blade. I understand that information on this matter may lead to dilemma since it can also be used by the makers/forgers to improve their techniques. Regards.

29th January 2007, 06:31 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	As I remarked in my earlier post, I personally cannot divorce the recognition of artificial aging from appraisal of the blade as a whole. In other words I need to look at form, material, method of manufacture, craftsmanship, the indicators that allow classification of a blade in accordance with tangguh, overall condition, and lastly I might pay a little attention to the blade surface. If one wishes to identify falsely aged blades with relative certainty, one needs first to learn how to appraise and classify a keris. One cannot just look at a blade surface and based on the erosion pattern of the metal declare that the blade is, or is not, artificially aged.

29th January 2007, 07:59 AM	#6
Buntel Mayit Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you Mr Maisey. It seems that it is absolutely not easy to spotting artificially aged blades. It takes enormous knowledge on keris which must be learned seriously and takes years. Does it necessarily mean that one should at least has a basic understanding on classic guide such as Mor-Ja-Si-Rap-Ngun plus Tangguh before judging a blade whether it is real old or artificial? Regards.

29th January 2007, 10:48 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Its probably not quite so simple as that. In my experience the bulk of keris collectors are mostly able to identify current era blades of Madura origin, whether actually made in Madura, or as a part of the current Madura tradition. Thus, if one of these blades is given the common low quality age treatment, I would guess that most collectors would identify exactly what the origin of the blade was , and that it had been treated to try to make it look old. And the vast bulk of these collectors have very, very little knowledge of how to apply the indicators of tangguh, or how to apply traditional Javanese standards.Still, they will identify a Madura blade falsely aged and presented as "old", probably nine times out of ten. Where these collectors will fail to identify a falsely presented blade is where a serious forger has applied his skill to prepare a blade that will sell for big money. However, the average collector based outside Jawa need not worry too much about this, because these collectors are not the target of the serious forger. The serious forger does not waste his talent on something that might sell for a few hundred dollars. He concentrates on the upper level market where keris change hands for values equivalent to motor vehicles and houses. Yes, certainly there are some people with rather slight integrity who do apply their talents in the lower market areas, but even when they present something as being other than what it is, the amounts of money involved are not great and whether the falsely presented item is genuinely old , or falsely presented as such, it is still worth around about the same amount of money. The sad part of all this is that this false presentation by persons of a less than honest character damages the entire field of keris interest, and can be very discouraging for a newcomer. The only protection is to seek out somebody who does understand the keris and try to learn from that person. For a new collector it is probably best to forget all about age, and collect on the basis of personal preference. Collect what appeals to you, not what somebody else tries to influence you to collect. The best approach of all could be to not collect at all until you have learnt at least a little bit about what makes a keris desireable. But if you must collect, just remember that all education costs money.