four foot rapier blades ???

urbanspaceman · 21st November 2021, 10:08 AM

Hello Folks.
Attached, is a transcribed page from the 1703 contract that the German swordmakers in Shotley Bridge signed for the Company: it lists all the possible blades they must be prepared to supply and, in particular, 'at what cost'.
The names and details require much modern interpretation, and anyone so-inclined is encouraged to oblige... thank-you. 'Latsons' ? English Rapiers with 'Lottors' ?
However, down at the bottom of the list, and highlighted, are the specifications for what I must assume are rapier blades, as the name Cutts is also a mystery to me.
More to the point (oops!) are the dimensions: 40 to 48 inches!
I have read about excessive fashion peccadilloes producing in-feasibly long rapier blades and, in fact, royal pronouncements as to acceptable dimensions; can anyone expound on this issue?
All in all, I thought this list might appeal to some of you folks out there.

fernando · 21st November 2021, 11:39 AM

Swords "off mark" (fora de marca) were those with more than 5 spans (palmos) with 43" full length, as per law published by King Dom João III in 1539. It is known that swords with a longer length abounded; some where up to 7 spans (over 60"), a length that became famous in those days.

If you deduct the guard+pommel to this, you get your four foot.

(3 Rapiers courtesy Algredo Nobre; Dom João III law collection Rainer Daehnhardt).

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urbanspaceman · 21st November 2021, 01:11 PM

Thank-you Fernando. I am not surprised you rise to the occasion.
I am a little unclear when you talk about deducting the tang: was it customary for forgers to measure their blades including the tang ? It seems reasonable I suppose.
Did they really carry rapiers with 5 foot blades ?
Definitely puts you at an advantage reach-wise, but surely unwieldy to all but the biggest and strongest gentlemen.

fernando · 21st November 2021, 03:55 PM

Precisely ... the reach is the issue. The laws legislate on how far you can reach (your foe) with a whole sword and not how long is the blade. Blades may be short and hilts may be long; it is the whole thing that counts for the legislator.
Let me show ou a 'growing' rapier, one in that when in its 'normal' version does not challenge the law but, when you stretch it, it extends up to a seven span sword.
FYI, even Kings (secretly) had them, as you may read in the (left side) caption

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urbanspaceman · 21st November 2021, 07:33 PM

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

fernando · 21st November 2021, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez:...

It's Fernando; don't Spanishize me

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Triarii · 23rd November 2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

The Military Museum down past the cruise ships berths had a reasonable number of swords. Went there in October this year. A few examples attached.

fernando · 22nd November 2021, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... English Rapiers with 'Lottors' ? ...

Cryptic terms indeed; besides some mispellings also being visible in the page.
May i take a shot at this one; "English Rapiers with Letters" (inscriptions) ?

.

21st November 2021, 10:08 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 506	four foot rapier blades ??? Hello Folks. Attached, is a transcribed page from the 1703 contract that the German swordmakers in Shotley Bridge signed for the Company: it lists all the possible blades they must be prepared to supply and, in particular, 'at what cost'. The names and details require much modern interpretation, and anyone so-inclined is encouraged to oblige... thank-you. 'Latsons' ? English Rapiers with 'Lottors' ? However, down at the bottom of the list, and highlighted, are the specifications for what I must assume are rapier blades, as the name Cutts is also a mystery to me. More to the point (oops!) are the dimensions: 40 to 48 inches! I have read about excessive fashion peccadilloes producing in-feasibly long rapier blades and, in fact, royal pronouncements as to acceptable dimensions; can anyone expound on this issue? All in all, I thought this list might appeal to some of you folks out there. Attached Images

21st November 2021, 11:39 AM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	In Portugal ... Swords "off mark" (fora de marca) were those with more than 5 spans (palmos) with 43" full length, as per law published by King Dom João III in 1539. It is known that swords with a longer length abounded; some where up to 7 spans (over 60"), a length that became famous in those days. If you deduct the guard+pommel to this, you get your four foot. (3 Rapiers courtesy Algredo Nobre; Dom João III law collection Rainer Daehnhardt). . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 21st November 2021 at 11:54 AM.

21st November 2021, 01:11 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 506	four foot rapier blades ??? Thank-you Fernando. I am not surprised you rise to the occasion. I am a little unclear when you talk about deducting the tang: was it customary for forgers to measure their blades including the tang ? It seems reasonable I suppose. Did they really carry rapiers with 5 foot blades ? Definitely puts you at an advantage reach-wise, but surely unwieldy to all but the biggest and strongest gentlemen.

21st November 2021, 03:55 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Not talking forgers ... Precisely ... the reach is the issue. The laws legislate on how far you can reach (your foe) with a whole sword and not how long is the blade. Blades may be short and hilts may be long; it is the whole thing that counts for the legislator. Let me show ou a 'growing' rapier, one in that when in its 'normal' version does not challenge the law but, when you stretch it, it extends up to a seven span sword. FYI, even Kings (secretly) had them, as you may read in the (left side) caption . Attached Images

21st November 2021, 07:33 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 506	size matters Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating. I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?