Any ideas on these

Andy Davis · 18th January 2006, 04:30 PM

Someone sent me photos of a knife and sword to identify. No idea how people get hold of my address but I said I'd have a go.....ummmm I dont know!
The sword is all wood, with very good construction in the handle. He dagger is a composite of wood and ivory/maybe tusk.
Any ideas?

Cheers
Andy

Montino Bourbon · 18th January 2006, 04:43 PM

The sword might be from a swordfish.

Rick · 18th January 2006, 05:10 PM

I've seen a lot of swordfish swords and I'd agree with Montino that this certainly appears to be one . (they are sort of 'woody' in texture)

The other piece I'm thinking is a walrus tusk .

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2006, 05:19 PM

I say that knife is really a bit special, fabulous, reminds me of Eskimo tools. I think you got lucky there. It could be from other places but it would not suprise me is it were Eskimo. Here are some Esimo ivroy tools. Tim

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2006, 05:36 PM

Okay these are not Eskimo. Trap pegs. It may not be a knife? Tim

Andy Davis · 18th January 2006, 05:37 PM

No im just doing my civic duty for some total stranger. I was thinking along the eskimo line myself

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2006, 06:10 PM

If it were a trap, net or line peg, the dark handle would stand out as you got near to it, when stuck in a snow covered surface. Perhaps ?

Tim

Zan · 19th January 2006, 03:01 AM

Hi,

I just want to precise that "inuit" is the term wich tend to replace "eskimo". The algonquin word "eskimo" means "raw meat eater"...

Zan

Tim Simmons · 19th January 2006, 09:58 AM

Thank you Zan, I should have and do know better, sorry. Tim

Radu Transylvanicus · 19th January 2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zan

Hi,

I just want to precise that "inuit" is the term wich tend to replace "eskimo". The algonquin word "eskimo" means "raw meat eater"...
Zan

Hmm, I wonder what your feedback is on "black feet".

By the way, the word "Inuit" instead means "the real people". Further confusing, the Arctic indigenuos people of Alaska and extreme north Siberia do not speak Inuit, they are mostly but not only, the Yupik and they speak Yupik language ... And the lingvists to my knowledge call their tongues family "Eskimoan"

Little confusing, I would say... I visited Alaska, including north: Fairbanks, Barrow and Fort Yukon in 2004 and was explained to me, regards to Eskimo, that Inuit (Canada & Greenland) that might find it ofensive, in Alaska there isnt any problem with it, they rather have a problem with being mistakenly called Inuit from politeness... Forgive me if I deviated you from the weapons for a second. That could be a walrus tusk, normally they are a little ribbed but not exclusivelly. If it is proven walrus, you are looking at an extremelly valuable Eskimo pana snow knife, probably. An overall utility tool, made from ivory only a long time ago, mostly to cut blocks of snow and or dig trough it. In my opinion there is no relation between the two objects you exhibit.
See this also:
1. http://www.rom.on.ca/exhibits/ivory/...allery_5_2.php
2. http://www.rom.on.ca/exhibits/ivory/...e_page2a_2.php
3. http://www.museevirtuel.ca/Exhibitio...s/12000020.htm

Tim Simmons · 19th January 2006, 05:06 PM

Yes Radu, Andrews acquaintance is indeed going to do rather well, if he or she decides to sell it.

Tim

Montino Bourbon · 20th January 2006, 09:01 PM

And I have seen something like that in a photo of warriors from Senegal.

Rick · 20th January 2006, 10:41 PM

A lot of these are sailor's work also ; sometimes they are scrimshawed .
I can certainly see the martial use of these ; anything that puts a hole in the other guy .......

fearn · 21st January 2006, 07:07 AM

Hi,

Yep, I'd agree that the sword looks like the bill from a swordfish. I also think that the ivory blade on the knife looks like an "Inuit" snow knife ("Inuit" in the sense that I don't know whether it came from Greenland, Alaska, or Canada). No new opinions there.

That said....

1) dimensions would be real helpful.

2) I'm having real trouble figuring out what source. Walrus kind of makes sense, but the dimensions would help straighten that out, as would figuring out how much of a tusk that blade represents.

3) I've seen a number of mounted swordfish blades on Ebay in the last few years, and this one could have come from just about anywhere.

4) If the knife is a walrus ivory snow knife, the usual issues with CITES come into force, as I believe walruses are protected. Potentially NAGPRA, which protects Native American graves, would be an issue in the US. Hopefully you've got some provenance information that makes both of these moot.

Neat blades. I always like seeing something from my side of the tracks.

F

Andy Davis · 21st January 2006, 10:47 AM

The first photo I was sent, with a tape for scale. Pretty big
I'll see what the guy has to say, regarding provenance. I'm assuming they are in the States but as I said, I was contacted out of the blue. I'll see if I can get any further info. Let me guess "They were found in an attic"
Cheers
Andy

18th January 2006, 04:30 PM	#1
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Any ideas on these Someone sent me photos of a knife and sword to identify. No idea how people get hold of my address but I said I'd have a go.....ummmm I dont know! The sword is all wood, with very good construction in the handle. He dagger is a composite of wood and ivory/maybe tusk. Any ideas? Cheers Andy Attached Images

18th January 2006, 05:19 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I say that knife is really a bit special, fabulous, reminds me of Eskimo tools. I think you got lucky there. It could be from other places but it would not suprise me is it were Eskimo. Here are some Esimo ivroy tools. Tim Attached Images

18th January 2006, 05:36 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Okay these are not Eskimo. Trap pegs. It may not be a knife? Tim Attached Images

18th January 2006, 05:37 PM	#6
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Im not lucky No im just doing my civic duty for some total stranger. I was thinking along the eskimo line myself

20th January 2006, 09:01 PM	#12
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 295	Swordfish... And I have seen something like that in a photo of warriors from Senegal.

18th January 2006, 04:43 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 295	The sword might be from a swordfish.

18th January 2006, 05:10 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I've seen a lot of swordfish swords and I'd agree with Montino that this certainly appears to be one . (they are sort of 'woody' in texture) The other piece I'm thinking is a walrus tusk .

18th January 2006, 06:10 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	If it were a trap, net or line peg, the dark handle would stand out as you got near to it, when stuck in a snow covered surface. Perhaps ? Tim

19th January 2006, 03:01 AM	#8
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Hi, I just want to precise that "inuit" is the term wich tend to replace "eskimo". The algonquin word "eskimo" means "raw meat eater"... Zan

19th January 2006, 09:58 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Thank you Zan, I should have and do know better, sorry. Tim

19th January 2006, 05:06 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Yes Radu, Andrews acquaintance is indeed going to do rather well, if he or she decides to sell it. Tim

20th January 2006, 10:41 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Swordfish A lot of these are sailor's work also ; sometimes they are scrimshawed . I can certainly see the martial use of these ; anything that puts a hole in the other guy .......

21st January 2006, 07:07 AM	#14
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi, Yep, I'd agree that the sword looks like the bill from a swordfish. I also think that the ivory blade on the knife looks like an "Inuit" snow knife ("Inuit" in the sense that I don't know whether it came from Greenland, Alaska, or Canada). No new opinions there. That said.... 1) dimensions would be real helpful. 2) I'm having real trouble figuring out what source. Walrus kind of makes sense, but the dimensions would help straighten that out, as would figuring out how much of a tusk that blade represents. 3) I've seen a number of mounted swordfish blades on Ebay in the last few years, and this one could have come from just about anywhere. 4) If the knife is a walrus ivory snow knife, the usual issues with CITES come into force, as I believe walruses are protected. Potentially NAGPRA, which protects Native American graves, would be an issue in the US. Hopefully you've got some provenance information that makes both of these moot. Neat blades. I always like seeing something from my side of the tracks. F

21st January 2006, 10:47 AM	#15
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	A picture with scale The first photo I was sent, with a tape for scale. Pretty big I'll see what the guy has to say, regarding provenance. I'm assuming they are in the States but as I said, I was contacted out of the blue. I'll see if I can get any further info. Let me guess "They were found in an attic" Cheers Andy Attached Images