oceanic club? what's it?

Tim Simmons · 8th May 2010, 02:18 PM

This is the second club picked from a group of oceanic clubs. It was sold as a harpoon but I question that. It is rather blunt. I see it in the same light as the Solomon islands club shown with it. The spike end, to hit with when stepping in close after a parry. Any ideas? nice weight.

Maurice · 8th May 2010, 02:47 PM

Nice haircut!

Atlantia · 8th May 2010, 03:14 PM

LMAO!!! Why so shy Tim?

Edit, great club though. Hell of a size!

VANDOO · 8th May 2010, 05:44 PM

I WOULD PUT THIS IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS THE MAORI TAHITA LONG CLUB/SPEAR TYPE OF WEAPON.
IT GIVES THE ADVANTAGE OF A LONG WEAPON AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO CHOKE UP ON IT FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSER USING BOTH ENDS. THE MAORI WEAPON DOES HAVE EDGES ON THE PRIMARY STRIKING PART OF THE WEAPON YOUR EXAMPLE IS MORE LIKE A SPEAR SHAFT OR POLE CLUB. SO I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A COMBINATION WEAPON SERVING AS A LONG CLUB OR A SHORT SPEAR (THESE FORMS USED FOR THRUSTING AND STRIKING NOT THROWING) NICE ONE!

I HAVE NO GOOD GUESSES AS TO WHERE ITS FROM BUT I WOULD ELIMINATE MAORI OR FIJIAN.

Tim Simmons · 8th May 2010, 06:21 PM

Thanks Barry, much like my thoughts with images of the "Haka" I like to think it is Fijian. Some of the other lots were also Fijian. The Fijian work, as well as stunning can also have a primitive look.

kahnjar1 · 8th May 2010, 08:23 PM

I think that the local Pharmacy could maybe help you with that nasty attack of whatever it is.....

The shape of the "points" on your club remind me strongly of the style of some of the PNG arrow points, so....maybe from there??

Lew · 8th May 2010, 09:20 PM

Tim

You were auditioning for Road Warrior 4 and forgot to come out of character correct?

katana · 9th May 2010, 12:41 PM

So thats what Elvis would do......if you trod on his Blue Suede Shoes

.

fearn · 9th May 2010, 04:07 PM

I'm thinking blunted and shortened Samoan or Tongan spear, myself. File down the points, cut off a bit of the shaft...

My question is whether it was cut down for transport to the UK, or cut down and used in the Pacific--basically, whether it's a repurposed spear used as a club or a curio.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2010, 05:38 PM

Looks like a cut down spear to me?

VANDOO · 9th May 2010, 07:11 PM

MOST FIJI CLUBS WERE DESIGNED AS CRUSHERS AND BONE BREAKERS AND MOST WOULD CRACK A SKULL WITH ONE GOOD SOLID HIT. THOUGH YOUR SPECIMIN WOULD CERTIANLY RAISE A GOOD KNOT ON A SKULL AND PERHAPS CAUSE A KNOCK- OUT, IT DOSEN'T APPEAR TO HAVE THE MASS OR EDGE TO DELIVER A CRUSHING BLOW.
THE BLUNT END DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE A RECENT CUT OFF FOR TRANSPORT IN A SUITCASE AND DOES APPEAR TO SHOW SOME WEAR POSSIBLY FROM USE. IT IS LIKELY IF A SPEAR WAS BROKEN OFF IT MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED FOR USE AS A LIGHT CLUB/SPEAR TYPE OF WEAPON RATHER THAN DISCARDED. THE CURIOUS THING ABOUT THIS IS IF I WAS GOING TO USE THIS AS A SHORT WEAPON I WOULD HAVE PUT A POINT ON BOTH ENDS. IT WOULD SEEM THE LOGICAL THING TO DO IF I WAS A WARRIOR.

THE CARVEING ON THE SPEAR HEAD END NARROWS IT DOWN TO OCEANIC FOR ME

BUT WAS USED IN SO MANY AREAS IT WILL REGUIRE MORE KNOWLEGE OR BETTER REFRENCES THAN I POSESS TO PIN IT DOWN EXACTLY.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2010, 07:26 PM

All valid opinions thank you. I just thought I would come up with some links to make us familiar with the objects that are suggested as the origin. My piece is 52 inches long. Compare with these pole clubs.

http://faganarms.com/18thcentury-pre...clubbowai.aspx

http://www.cinoa.org/exhibits/62410

Lets not forget what a true wood spear looks like?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lanesian+spear

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2010, 08:26 PM

Lets face it how hard a hit on the head do you need before you decide you cannot play any more. If a club is too heavy you cannot engage in fast combat. I will suggest less than that needed to fracture your skull. Pushing a hole in your skull with the blunt spear end might be a lot easier once the opponent has been rendered somewhat dizzy. Ouch

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2010, 05:40 PM

I think this comparison to a heavy red oak bokken is interesting. Martial "Arts" fans will see that the techniques must be broadly similar except we do not know of any Fijian schools or baggage as in Japan. The Melanesian clubs have the spike which also makes the action staff like rather than just sword base. The Solomon island club is perhaps slower being a little top heavy, a bit like swinging a wood axe if held with hands near the spike end.

fearn · 10th May 2010, 09:48 PM

I still don't think it's Fijian. It's probably from further west.

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2010, 06:49 AM

I agree.

Gavin Nugent · 16th May 2010, 05:47 AM

Tim,

Based on the image alone found on page 117 of Steven Hoopers Pacific encounters, this appears to be of possible Hawaiian Islands origins.

Gav

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2010, 06:50 PM

Gav, thanks for bring this into discussion again. Interesting observation but I do not think we are looking at the same type of weapon.

The item was covered in a thick coating of yellowed old varnish. Which even in real live did make the object look rather unpromising and as you may recall, the auction house's online picture really did not help either. I had removed the varnish before starting this thread. There were traces of lime in the decoration carved into the hexagonal boss, sadly I could not remove the varnish and keep the lime remnants so I have added some lime seen as in these pictures {still a little too white} I have to say now as Fern suggested, it really does look like something from further west the New Hebrides, Solomons, Bismark archipelago. As to the spear idea, you can see the point is not made in a manner suitable for throwing penetration more a concentration crushing point the barbs just help in a glancing blow. The weight of the stick is 1166g with no evidence of taper on what might be thought of as a spear. So add another 1.5m or there about's and you would a very ungainly spear. I have included the page from the book mentioned for those who do not have it. The text says quite a lot about the nature of the object.

Gavin Nugent · 16th May 2010, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Gav, thanks for bring this into discussion again. Interesting observation but I do not think we are looking at the same type of weapon.

The item was covered in a thick coating of yellowed old varnish. Which even in real live did make the object look rather unpromising and as you may recall, the auction house's online picture really did not help either. I had removed the varnish before starting this thread. There were traces of lime in the decoration carved into the hexagonal boss, sadly I could not remove the varnish and keep the lime remnants so I have added some lime seen as in these pictures {still a little too white} I have to say now as Fern suggested, it really does look like something from further west the New Hebrides, Solomons, Bismark archipelago. As to the spear idea, you can see the point is not made in a manner suitable for throwing penetration more a concentration crushing point the barbs just help in a glancing blow. The weight of the stick is 1166g with no evidence of taper on what might be thought of as a spear. So add another 1.5m or there about's and you would a very ungainly spear. I have included the page from the book mentioned for those who do not have it. The text says quite a lot about the nature of the object.

I agree, not the same type of weapon but of the type, it can offer clearer direction for looking.

Gav

fearn · 17th May 2010, 04:25 AM

Classic case of foot in mouth disease. The illustrations of spears from Samoa look just like this. I've struck out trying to find a live version of one of those, but that's my bet. Meant east, said west, call me an ijit.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 17th May 2010, 07:04 AM

This is what you are thinking of. Again I see this as a very different weapon even if used as a lance rather than a spear to throw. The spike and barbs on the item I have would make a ineffective lance, The point is far too rounded and as you can see on a human scale it massive in the hand.

8th May 2010, 02:18 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	oceanic club? what's it? This is the second club picked from a group of oceanic clubs. It was sold as a harpoon but I question that. It is rather blunt. I see it in the same light as the Solomon islands club shown with it. The spike end, to hit with when stepping in close after a parry. Any ideas? nice weight. Attached Images

8th May 2010, 09:20 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim You were auditioning for Road Warrior 4 and forgot to come out of character correct? Attached Images

9th May 2010, 12:41 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	So thats what Elvis would do......if you trod on his Blue Suede Shoes . Attached Images

9th May 2010, 05:38 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Looks like a cut down spear to me? Attached Images

9th May 2010, 07:26 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	All valid opinions thank you. I just thought I would come up with some links to make us familiar with the objects that are suggested as the origin. My piece is 52 inches long. Compare with these pole clubs. http://faganarms.com/18thcentury-pre...clubbowai.aspx http://www.cinoa.org/exhibits/62410 Lets not forget what a true wood spear looks like? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lanesian+spear Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th May 2010 at 07:45 PM.

8th May 2010, 02:47 PM	#2
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,324	Nice haircut!

8th May 2010, 03:14 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	LMAO!!! Why so shy Tim? Edit, great club though. Hell of a size!

8th May 2010, 05:44 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD PUT THIS IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS THE MAORI TAHITA LONG CLUB/SPEAR TYPE OF WEAPON. IT GIVES THE ADVANTAGE OF A LONG WEAPON AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO CHOKE UP ON IT FOR FIGHTING IN CLOSER USING BOTH ENDS. THE MAORI WEAPON DOES HAVE EDGES ON THE PRIMARY STRIKING PART OF THE WEAPON YOUR EXAMPLE IS MORE LIKE A SPEAR SHAFT OR POLE CLUB. SO I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A COMBINATION WEAPON SERVING AS A LONG CLUB OR A SHORT SPEAR (THESE FORMS USED FOR THRUSTING AND STRIKING NOT THROWING) NICE ONE! I HAVE NO GOOD GUESSES AS TO WHERE ITS FROM BUT I WOULD ELIMINATE MAORI OR FIJIAN.

8th May 2010, 06:21 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thanks Barry, much like my thoughts with images of the "Haka" I like to think it is Fijian. Some of the other lots were also Fijian. The Fijian work, as well as stunning can also have a primitive look.

8th May 2010, 08:23 PM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	I think that the local Pharmacy could maybe help you with that nasty attack of whatever it is..... The shape of the "points" on your club remind me strongly of the style of some of the PNG arrow points, so....maybe from there??

9th May 2010, 04:07 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm thinking blunted and shortened Samoan or Tongan spear, myself. File down the points, cut off a bit of the shaft... My question is whether it was cut down for transport to the UK, or cut down and used in the Pacific--basically, whether it's a repurposed spear used as a club or a curio. Best, F

9th May 2010, 07:11 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MOST FIJI CLUBS WERE DESIGNED AS CRUSHERS AND BONE BREAKERS AND MOST WOULD CRACK A SKULL WITH ONE GOOD SOLID HIT. THOUGH YOUR SPECIMIN WOULD CERTIANLY RAISE A GOOD KNOT ON A SKULL AND PERHAPS CAUSE A KNOCK- OUT, IT DOSEN'T APPEAR TO HAVE THE MASS OR EDGE TO DELIVER A CRUSHING BLOW. THE BLUNT END DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE A RECENT CUT OFF FOR TRANSPORT IN A SUITCASE AND DOES APPEAR TO SHOW SOME WEAR POSSIBLY FROM USE. IT IS LIKELY IF A SPEAR WAS BROKEN OFF IT MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED FOR USE AS A LIGHT CLUB/SPEAR TYPE OF WEAPON RATHER THAN DISCARDED. THE CURIOUS THING ABOUT THIS IS IF I WAS GOING TO USE THIS AS A SHORT WEAPON I WOULD HAVE PUT A POINT ON BOTH ENDS. IT WOULD SEEM THE LOGICAL THING TO DO IF I WAS A WARRIOR. THE CARVEING ON THE SPEAR HEAD END NARROWS IT DOWN TO OCEANIC FOR ME BUT WAS USED IN SO MANY AREAS IT WILL REGUIRE MORE KNOWLEGE OR BETTER REFRENCES THAN I POSESS TO PIN IT DOWN EXACTLY.

9th May 2010, 08:26 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Lets face it how hard a hit on the head do you need before you decide you cannot play any more. If a club is too heavy you cannot engage in fast combat. I will suggest less than that needed to fracture your skull. Pushing a hole in your skull with the blunt spear end might be a lot easier once the opponent has been rendered somewhat dizzy. Ouch

10th May 2010, 05:40 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I think this comparison to a heavy red oak bokken is interesting. Martial "Arts" fans will see that the techniques must be broadly similar except we do not know of any Fijian schools or baggage as in Japan. The Melanesian clubs have the spike which also makes the action staff like rather than just sword base. The Solomon island club is perhaps slower being a little top heavy, a bit like swinging a wood axe if held with hands near the spike end. Attached Images

10th May 2010, 09:48 PM	#15
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I still don't think it's Fijian. It's probably from further west.

11th May 2010, 06:49 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I agree.

16th May 2010, 05:47 AM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Spear Tim, Based on the image alone found on page 117 of Steven Hoopers Pacific encounters, this appears to be of possible Hawaiian Islands origins. Gav

16th May 2010, 06:50 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Gav, thanks for bring this into discussion again. Interesting observation but I do not think we are looking at the same type of weapon. The item was covered in a thick coating of yellowed old varnish. Which even in real live did make the object look rather unpromising and as you may recall, the auction house's online picture really did not help either. I had removed the varnish before starting this thread. There were traces of lime in the decoration carved into the hexagonal boss, sadly I could not remove the varnish and keep the lime remnants so I have added some lime seen as in these pictures {still a little too white} I have to say now as Fern suggested, it really does look like something from further west the New Hebrides, Solomons, Bismark archipelago. As to the spear idea, you can see the point is not made in a manner suitable for throwing penetration more a concentration crushing point the barbs just help in a glancing blow. The weight of the stick is 1166g with no evidence of taper on what might be thought of as a spear. So add another 1.5m or there about's and you would a very ungainly spear. I have included the page from the book mentioned for those who do not have it. The text says quite a lot about the nature of the object. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th May 2010 at 09:58 PM. Reason: spelling

17th May 2010, 04:25 AM	#20
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Classic case of foot in mouth disease. The illustrations of spears from Samoa look just like this. I've struck out trying to find a live version of one of those, but that's my bet. Meant east, said west, call me an ijit. Best, F

17th May 2010, 07:04 AM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This is what you are thinking of. Again I see this as a very different weapon even if used as a lance rather than a spear to throw. The spike and barbs on the item I have would make a ineffective lance, The point is far too rounded and as you can see on a human scale it massive in the hand. Attached Images